Intro Welcome to the Femininja Podcast. This series was co-curated and co-hosted with our friends at Whose Knowledge? These episodes were recorded during the Decolonizing the Internet, East Africa gathering in Lusaka, Zambia.

Youlendree Appasamy Hey everybody, and welcome to today's podcast. I'm Youlendree Appasamy Appassamy. I'm the Communications Associate for the Visible Wiki Woman Campaign at Whose Knowledge? and our co-host today is…

Kerubo Onsoti I am Sylvia Kerubo Onsoti from FEMNET, and I work there as the Digital Media Officer. And in studio we have a special guest and her name is…

Chipasha Mwansa Hi everyone. My name is Chipasha Mwansa Mwansa from Zambia. I am a feminist, activist, humanist, so many things. I wear many hats. I am currently working for a Pan-African feminist organization called Akina Mama wa Africa as project liaison on a project called Make Way. But I also run the feminist organization here in Zambia called Pepeta Zambia.

Youlendree Appasamy Okay. So I don't know if you want to maybe tell our listeners a bit more about the organizations you've mentioned. Maybe if they don't know much about them, and maybe you could tell us more about what your day-to-day activities look like, what the organization does and how decolonizing as a concept is being put into practice by what you're doing in Zambia.

Chipasha Mwansa Okay, thank you. Like I said earlier, I am wearing many hats. So with Akina Mama wa Africa, I'm Project Liaison here in Zambia on a project called Make Way, which is an intersectionality SRHR program being run across five countries, Zambia, Rwanda, Ethiopia, Kenya, and Uganda. So I'm the point person on this project here in Zambia on behalf of Akina Mama. Apart from being run across, implemented across the five countries, it's also been implemented as a consortium. So we're working with five in a consortium of five organizations that (FAWE) Forum for African Women Educationalists, The Circle of Concerned African Theologians in Africa, Cheshire Homes or Leonard Cheshire Homes Society of Zambia for the Zambian chapter. Then we also have Akina Mama wa Africa, of course, as well as VSO. So we are using the intersectional lens, the intersectionality concept to implement SRHR programming across the five countries.

Why intersectionality? Because we realized that so many programs on sexual productive health have been done over a long period of time over many, many years. And I'll stick to the Zambian context, but we still have so many high rates of abortion and unsafe abortions. And this is weird, especially for Zambia in a country that has what others might term as a very liberal abortion act, abortion law. So why do we still have young girls and women dying from procuring and unsafe abortions? We still have a lot of issues around comprehensive sexuality education. We still have so many things that do not add up for a country that has made great milestones around sexual reproductive health. So intersectionality, because we realize that there isn't one way of viewing a problem. So that is why when you look at the composition of the consortium, they are diverse organizations.

So we have people looking at disability inclusion, we have people looking at education for girls and women. We have the theologians, because religion plays a huge role in whether or not people and young people in this case access reproductive health services. And then we have Akina that is bringing in the feminist perspective because we realize that we do very little for girls and women who are our focus, as Akina, if we do not use a feminist lens to interrogate some of the work that we're doing, including policy review and advocacy for some policies and so on. So in that regard, decolonizing would mean that we are trying to contextualize sexual reproductive health for young people, for our target, for African girls, for Zambian girls. And that means deconstructing a lot of things and not taking, I keep going back to reproductive health because that's what I've been focusing on, not taking things at face value and not taking things as they're handed over down from our donors, from our well wishes, from our partners. So decolonization for me in my work around sexual productive health means contextualizing, being factual and doing programming around SRHR that is woman centered, that sees the girl behind the service before the service and after.

Youlendree Appasamy So you, you're speaking quite a lot about the reproductive right sector and how you're both applying a feminist lens as well as an intersectional lens to the work that you've been doing. So when you look at it through the intersectional and decolonial lenses, how does the internet factor into the work that you're doing?

Chipasha Mwansa So, I will give another example of the other work that I do with Pepeta Zambia. So Pepeta Zambia is a feminist organization whose core work is also around reproductive health, is also around inclusion of girls and women in governance and decision making. And we do this through strategic partnerships with institutions that hold power because we want to get a seat at the table. And we also realize that over the years we've done advocacy in a way that has not really yielded much result. So this time around we said, well, we're not going to look at our policy makers or implementers as our enemies. We want to bring them to the table and have conversations with them and have them see things our way. So what this has meant is making strategic partnerships with them. So we as Pepeta have worked closely with an institution called the SADC PF, the SADC Parliamentary Forum.

This is a body that brings together all members of parliament from the SADC region, and each nation has a SADC office in their international assembly or parliament, whatever it is that they call it. So how we have used the internet or tech is that, I mean, post pre-Covid, we were doing a lot of implementation in person going in the communities and then Covid hit, and it sort of gave us a different perspective on how we do our work and how we do our programming. Of course, in the past pre-Covid, we were talking about, oh, we don't want to be elitist. We want to be in the grassroots, we want to be in the trenches, we want to be where the people are, where our target are. These are community members, these are girls that are in and out of school. These are rural girls, these are girls that are in peri-urban areas.

And so we would go in the communities and do our organizing, our community and movement building, but when Covid hit, we had to really had to, it gave us 360 spin on how to do our programming and how to do our work. So we had to get creative with how we implement. So it took us almost six months of re-planning, reorganizing, going back to the donor to say, “Hey, look, this has happened, but we still feel we can do it”. So how did we do it? We implemented, I think about three programs, three projects online for three years. So that meant using the internet, different platforms. We used WhatsApp, we used Twitter, we used Facebook, we used Zoom, we had trainings via Zoom. So what that meant also is that we needed to train some of our participants. We needed to train some of our trainers on how to use these different spaces.

Chipasha Mwansa The lesson from that is that really the internet by and large is not meant for African people. For African girls, it is not safe, it is not friendly. We had instances where randoms would enter our spaces and just disrupt the process. A space that is supposed to be safe for girls to express themselves, survivors of SGBV [Sexual and Gender-based Violence]. You have this random man come in the space [to] infiltrate and just threaten everyone in there. So we saw so many things. We saw so many gaps, but we had to keep going. We had to get creative. So what that meant is we needed to revisit our programming once more and look at safer options. People had to get creative. So many apps were developed during Covid. So many people got creative in how work gets done. So we use the internet a lot during Covid, and even now post-Covid, it's still an option if we want to reach young girls or women that are very far from where the actual implementation is happening can still reach them.

It's not an easy fit because issues around costs: direct, direct costs, such as the purchasing of bundles for our participants, indirect costs like issues around technology, do they have access to smartphones, to laptops, to gadgets that will allow them be part of the process. But yeah, that is how we use the internet. And in talking about decolonization, it made us really ask ourselves whether we are doing meaningful work, whether we're being impactful and really how we're going to measure our reach and as well as impact going forward if we're going to continue using technology. So finding smart ways of doing it, getting people to use even text messaging as a way to get services. I know some organizations that we had partnered with that came up with short codes, they partnered with telecommunication companies to develop short codes for them, for people that needed contraceptives, people that needed certain services, be it safe abortion services and so on.

We also came up with strategies like a buddy system, someone you could trust linking young girls to healthcare providers in facilities in the different locations and having them deliver sanitary wear or contraceptives closer to them. We had organizations, I'll not name them, that also went as far as still providing safe abortion services during Covid. It was really hard because there were restrictions around how many people should be in a health facility. Are you really sick? Do you really need to be there? So we still had organizations that partnered with us and still provided the service that was needed even in the midst of a pandemic because people did not stop having sex during Covid. Young people were still having sex, people are still having unprotected sex. But also what happened is that there was a high increase, there was a high rate of SGBV, especially over sexual nature because people were locked down with mostly the perpetrators of these crimes with the abusers.

Kerubo Onsoti Locked down with their abusers?

Chipasha Mwansa Yeah, their abusers. So school was an escape, work was an escape, but when we locked down they were trapped. So technology really played a huge role. And for the first time, I think Africa had to really relook at how we look at programming because I feel like the West has been way ahead of us in terms of technology and how they use it. I mean, they've been using Skype and all these other platforms for the longest time. We never really thought that we would ever need it until we did. So yeah, decolonizing, looking at how helpful it is and how harmful it also can be, how safe is it for the kind of programming for the kind of work that we do, and how accessible is it for our constituents? Are they able to afford smartphones, laptops, and just how can we still build community even in uncertainty?

Youlendree Appasamy I think the Covid pandemic was really a crisis of a lot of things and brought that sense of urgency in Africa about how are we using online platforms and spaces, what kind of tech gadgets, tools, equipment do we have? And it really highlighted the haves and the have nots and who could go about their day relatively uninterrupted and whose lives were completely turned upside down because of not having access to these things. I think Sylvia has a question.

Kerubo Onsoti Not really a question. Maybe a question afterwards. I'm just surprised that you also faced the same thing with the Zoom calls and the harassment. It was so bad. Like I remember now, ours happened to, we had a training with now the young girls. At FEMNET we have a program that works with like really young girls. And so I think when the pandemic started, we didn't even think someone can do such a thing. You just go, you create this space, you invite people, they come and join your space. And I think we had a guy who just joined the space and then just started throwing in hate comments and then at some point shared the screen and he was just writing some really terrible things. Oh, it was so scary. And I see for me it's even as we talk about the digital space and women of color and African women, I feel like this space has not been created to be safe for us.

Kerubo Onsoti So a lot of us are very hesitant to even join our fellows, our peers out there or even talk about sensitive topics. And obviously the pandemic showed us that, especially development work, it's so hard to do it if you're not doing it on the ground. So we had to really readjust and try and see how we can spread the message and make that impact online. And so for me, my question to you will be decolonization. What does that mean for you? With all the many hats that you're wearing, what will it mean for you? We have had an amazing two days. We have talked about so much, but then there's definitely something that you have really held onto.

Chipasha Mwansa Well, I think honestly, like many of my colleagues who attended DTI, the decolonizing the internet convening, I had never really thought of the internet as an oppressive space or one that had been used to oppress women of color or women or Africans in general until I think conversations around the convening started happening with some friends. And finally we got here. So I had a lot of questions around what does that really mean before I related it to myself. So it means access, accessibility for our constituents who are mostly young girls and women, whether urban based, rural, literate. I hate to use the term literate because I think it's very elitist and what is literacy really? Yes. But of course for purposes of identification, people who've attended a certain level of education in the formal sector or those that have not but have been schooled through hard knocks school of life.

So it means a space, the internet and all that it comes with that is gadgets, that is money for bundles, that is electricity to charge these same gadgets being accessible for all the people that need it. And which really, if you look at it is everybody. It also means relatable. Is it a space that women and girls in all their diversity are able to relate to? Is it a space that they can use? It means language that is easy and easily understood by the people that we're trying to reach out to. It means tools and apps that they can easily access and easily manipulate for their use. It means digital literacy really being included in our school curriculum as an examinable even subject, just like Math and English so that it has that urgency created for digital literacy. So it's a lot of things, but at the core of everything really is issues around safety and accessibility for me.

Because if people don't feel safe on the internet and it is the only platform that you have to reach them, you will not attain your goal. You will not do any meaningful work and you still have the same cadre of people coming to this space while the people that really need the work, that really need the service are left behind. So we do not want to leave anybody behind. I would not want to leave anybody behind, but because of obligation, because it's work and it has to be done, you reach who you can. But my ideal internet would be one that is accessible for all and is safe.

Youlendree Appasamy And that's the kind of internet I think so many of us are desiring. We're craving that space and it's on us to carve out those spaces as they currently exist in the online world. So to go back to our DTI East Africa conference, what are some things you stepped into the convening venue expecting you were going to learn? And how did the gathering meet those expectations?

Chipasha Mwansa I think I definitely came to the space fully aware of the kind of space that it would be, that it would be a feminist space. And I say this and I feel how, I also realize how privileged I am because how many people can say a feminist space and understand what that means if they've never been in a feminist space. So I knew I was coming to a feminist space and for me that means community, that means sisterhood, that means safety. That means I can throw away my high heeled shoes. That means that I can be my most authentic self and not feel judged and not feel like I need to appear a certain way and I need to speak a certain way. I definitely believe that I could come to this space and not be the most tech savvy person, but I would still understand the content of the DTI and my expectations were wildly met.

But there's something that threw me off, and it's during one of the sessions where we were given the stats on women's involvement, especially around knowledge contribution globally, but more than that, Africa as a whole, how little or insignificant we are considered to be contributing to the wealth of knowledge or what is termed as education. This is a continent that is rich with history. But one thing that I also took away that really I felt affirmed with is the fact that everybody knows that knowledge is more than text. And we all know that as Africans, we're very expressive. We tell our stories through song, through dance, through storytelling. We do not need to document it for it to be valid. Our experiencing of the lives that we live, our telling of our stories in itself is knowledge. And it's been transmitted from one generation to another.

So no one can say we have not contributed to the wealth of knowledge or globally that is the most laughable and most ridiculous thing that I heard this week and I think for the foreseeable future. So that really threw me off, but also brought to the fore the fact that whether we like it or not, somehow we need to document. And if we do not tell our own stories, it's either of one of two things. Either they will not get told or they'll be told through the storytellers lens, and we do not want that. So we need to tell our own stories. We need to document to run away from issues of appropriation, of people's history, people's lives and misrepresentation of who they are. I walked into a space knowing that women have been repressed and oppressed for many, many years since time immemorial. But I didn't know to what extent until we were in a session where we were introduced to Wiki Commons and realized that really even women that have made great strides are nowhere to be found on the internet. You will find the most ridiculous thing that a white man has done, but it is out there. You'll Google it and you'll find it.

Youlendree Appasamy It's there in detail …

Chipasha Mwansa In all its ridiculousness really if that term exists, but there's really very little about what women have done, the gains that they have made. So I left DTI resolved to write about women and their achievements. I opened a Wiki Commons account. Yes, I have an account. So I will be writing and writing and writing and documenting women's stories, women's experiences for the foreseeable future really. And I hope that all of us left that space feeling energized and feeling like there's something, there's work to be done. And rather than complain, of course our complaints are valued, but after we complain, then what happens? What do we do about it? So yeah, I left not wanting to be an armchair critic anymore, but I want to do something about it.

Youlendree Appasamy You're definitely not an armchair critic. Definitely not. But thank you for those beautiful observations about DTI and your expectations, your surprises about the space. I just remembered the stat, I remember the stat you were talking about in terms of only 1% to 2% of research Africa contributes to the world, like globally of global research. Africa contributes 1% to 2%.

Kerubo Onsoti That's such a small… Oh my goodness

Youlendree Appasamy And considering we are so rich in our histories, in our cultures, in our languages, that is the most disappointing and violent kind of injustice that happens online. And it goes back to your point about literacy. You were talking about earlier, what kind of knowledge is being celebrated, is being funded, is replicated in our online spaces,

Chipasha Mwansa Whose knowledge, really?

Youlendree Appasamy Whose knowledge?. And it's a textual form of information that doesn't cover the broadness and the complexity of our lives here, of our ancestors lives here. So yeah, that was just a comment before we move on to the next —

Chipasha Mwansa And just adding to that is with that ridiculous stat on how little Africa contributes to the global knowledge. Then we had one that was talking about, and this was a UNESCO study, we were told, one that was talking about how 85% of research on Africa is done outside the continent. How, and who? How are they writing about a continent that they do not understand? Who is writing and what are they writing about it? If we're only contributing one to 2% to the global knowledge, and yet 85% of all research on Africa is outside the continent. So brings in issues around legitimacy intent. What is it used for? and what's the purpose of that research? What does it contribute to, if any –

Youlendree Appasamy And ownership of knowledge and how that's being shared.

Chipasha Mwansa And are they crediting that knowledge back to Africa? Are they saying they developed this, they got this from here? Well, I think at this point we know the answers to these questions. We have entire national heritage artifacts in international museums spread across Europe.

Youlendree Appasamy Yeah, this is the shout out for reparations. This is where we segue into any European listeners, especially if you work at GLAM institutions, reparations, those things need to come back home.

Kerubo Onsoti I think you've mentioned how people don't really talk about the great African women. No one talks about them. And for me it's even when it comes to things like International Women's Day, you never see a lot of the great women in our countries highlighted, well, I get it. A lot of great women fought for independence. So maybe that's a triggering topic to them. They don't want to talk about the women who chase them away. But I feel like as African women, it's our time to now write our own stories. It's our time to now amplify and tell the world these stories. Because kids in Europe, kids in the US, they don't know anything about history, our history, and yet we know so much.

Chipasha Mwansa You know the siblings of all the Kings are Queens.

Kerubo Onsoti A bit too much. A bit too much about their history. So what I liked the most about DTI is how now we are able to write these stories. We are able to tell these stories the way we know how to and with the knowledge that we have. So that was my comment for, you've just mentioned the African women, and then I remembered,

Chipasha Mwansa (27:47): And it reminds me of one project that we had done as Pepeta Zambia. Well, it was implemented across three countries, Zimbabwe, Zambia, and Malawi. And it was called Our Voices. So we were telling women's lived experiences through our lens. So it was more of a competition, but it was also a way of documenting and getting women's lived experiences, women's stories. It was supported by OSISA. And I think we also got some support from HIVOS. It was also one of the online projects that we had done during Covid. So we put out a call in the three countries that we were implementing for all artists in all their forms, whether written, whether we wanted all those that are artistic to come forward and tell women's lived experiences, tell women's stories. So others wrote stories. They wrote poetry, they made sculptures, they painted. And in each of the three countries we had 10 winners.

We had to do something. So we had 10 winners, but we also had exhibitions and we have a booklet that is online and people can still access all these materials. So telling our own stories our way, the best way we know how freely without any bias or anyone telling you how to tell it. So that was one way that we also used the internet. We decolonize the internet by allowing young feminists to express their lived experiences. It could be stories of their grandparents, of any woman, really. And the limit was women, the focus was women. Women that you know of that you've heard of. It could be your own story, really. So that is how we also, now thinking back, we decolonized not knowing what we were doing, but that's what we were doing really. We took back the internet, we decolonized the internet and we have a publication online that is still there, that is still accessible for those that would want. So yeah.

Youlendree Appasamy As we come to the end of our conversation, I just wanted to find out if there is anything you'd like to add, anything we've missed out on, any shout outs?

Chipasha Mwansa I think the only shout out that I have is for all the amazing fierce feminist women and girls across the African continent and beyond that are doing amazing work. Keep doing what you're doing. Someone is listening. Someone is in dire need of what you have to say. And the solidarity that we offer to each other as African feminists, as women in all our diversities is beyond anything that I can comprehend. And also when people talk about how women do not support each other, I cannot relate. I have never related because who I am today, where I am, the work that I have done, the opportunities I have gotten, were all because of women. So I can't relate to the stereotype. No women do not support each other. Women hate each other. I can't because I do not know those women. And I do not know why people are still friends with such people. And I do not think that pulling each other down and denying each other opportunities is either feminine or masculine or any gender. I think it's a personality issue. So yeah, all the feminists out there keep doing what you're doing. You are seen, you are heard, and you are loved.

Youlendree Appasamy Aww, thank you. Thank you so much for that.

Chipasha Mwansa I have received it very personally

Kerubo Onsoti The vibes.

Youlendree Appasamy Thank you so Chipasha Mwansa for just sharing with us all of the experiences, your lived experiences, your work, talking about your expectations and surprises at DTI and yeah, thank you.

Chipasha Mwansa Thank you for having me.

Outro Hey, thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much for joining us for the Femininja Podcast. We really believe and trust that you have enjoyed our conversations and they have pricked some thinking, some kind of wanting to find out more about feminism, about patriarchy, and what is the role for each one of us in detonating patriarchy and proudly and boldly claiming ourselves as feminists. So stay tuned, keep following us and engage with us on FEMNET website, www.femnet.org. Thank you. You can follow whose knowledge on Twitter, at @whoseknowledge.

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