Index talk:Somerville Mechanism of the heavens.djvu

Translation?

I changed the Author and Translator on this Index file because I believe this might be a translation of some works written by Author:Pierre-Simon Laplace (French fr:Auteur:Pierre-Simon_Laplace). Could someone who reads French look into this? Outlier59 (talk) 01:52, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

@Outlier59: Thank you for posting this question, as I was about to query your change in any case. There appears to be little doubt in academic circles that Mary Somerville drew upon Pierre-Simon Laplace's Mécanique céleste, but quotations regarding "La Place" in the third person as appears on Page:Somerville Mechanism of the heavens.djvu/78 personally give me doubts that this is in any way merely a "translation." Even being so parsimonious as only crediting her of producing a technical commentary upon Laplace' treatise surely still warrants giving her credit as a full author? AuFCL (talk) 02:06, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

@AuFCL: I think someone who reads French needs to look at this. The page you note is in the Introduction, which suggests that the main work might be a translation. Outlier59 (talk) 02:19, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

A fair point. As Mécanique céleste is reputed to be in five parts, this could go a long way toward explaining the "[Book" numbers appearing on alternate page headers. Presumably these are tied to the French publication? AuFCL (talk) 02:32, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

The book on French Wikisourse is 14 parts. [1] Someone who reads French needs to look at this. Outlier59 (talk) 02:57, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Just a note in case it is useful. Internet Archive has at least two sets of Nathaniel Bowditch's 1829 translation of the first three-four volumes of Mécanique céleste (I am unclear on this but believe his son, confusingly also Nathaniel—Ingersoll—Bowditch may have completed the translation of volume 4):

1. https://archive.org/details/mcaniquecles01lapl
2. https://archive.org/details/mcaniquecles02lapl
3. https://archive.org/details/mcaniquecles03lapl
4. https://archive.org/details/mcaniquecles04lapl

Set two (may be duplicates of above?)

1. https://archive.org/details/mcaniquecles01laplrich
2. https://archive.org/details/mcaniquecles02laplrich
3. https://archive.org/details/mcaniquecles03laplrich
4. https://archive.org/details/mcaniquecles04laplrich

The wikipedia entry for Bowditch seems to be a confused mess of details drawn from both father and son, so I doubt will prove of much assistance. AuFCL (talk) 05:09, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

@AuFCL: I tried to start sorting this some of this out on page Author:Pierre-Simon Laplace. The author description gives Mécanique céleste as original work, but the original volumes were in French. In 1831, Somerville could have been doing a translation or writing something original. Not quite clear yet. Outlier59 (talk) 13:10, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Alternate scan

I have used https://archive.org/details/mechanismofheave00somerich as an alternative scan where the one used here is blurry. — Zoeannl (talk) 13:59, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Summary for the general public

Page:Somerville Mechanism of the heavens.djvu/9 indicates this is a summary intended for the general public. See w:Society for the Diffusion of Useful Knowledge. Page:Somerville Mechanism of the heavens.djvu/79 confirms that the writer selected certain parts of the work (either in translation or original French) to include here. I'm not sure how this book should be labelled. It's like a very long w:Cliff Notes. Outlier59 (talk) 15:01, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

I've imported volume 1 of the Bowditch translation, and I'll try to get the others imported this week. This Somerville version is more likely to be of wider interest. I'm in favor of changing the author back to Somerville, even if she worked from the original French volumes. It seems pretty clear she did a lot more than translate. Outlier59 (talk) 18:20, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

It gets messier and messier. See Index_talk:Mécanique_céleste_Vol_1.djvu#Translation_or_original_work.3F. If Somerville actually did a true translation of LaPlace's original work, from the French, to create this work, her version might be better than the Bowditch "translation".

I'm going to ask French Wikisource for help. (Gulp! I can't read French and I'm a Yankee. Two strong points against me. But I'll... try... Gulp!)Outlier59 (talk) 00:57, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

I can't figure out how to ask French Wikisource about this. Any help appreciated!! :) Outlier59 (talk) 01:42, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

I have looked at trying interWS conversations but it was too intimidating. There is no procedure or process—it's "just" a matter of finding someone to collaborate with. I have seen talk from people from the French WS but can't remember where off-hand. A search of user pages for fr.wikisource didn't show up anyone I recognised. User:JackPotte might be worth a try? If we could get someone to collaborate that would be great. The whole translation side of WS is so underdeveloped and potentially really valuable… Zoeannl (talk) 12:18, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Folks, why not start with a few names of local users who have declared they are comfortable with French? There's a few familiar and approachable names in that list. Or perhaps even better yet native speakers? AuFCL (talk) 12:45, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

I like that idea. I'll try to summarize these questions in Author talk:Pierre-Simon Laplace and ping a few local names I recognise. If they can't help, maybe they know someone who can. Outlier59 (talk) 12:40, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

Mécanique céleste

@Zoeannl: @AuFCL: I've created index pages for 4 volumes of Mécanique céleste (see volume links on Index:Mécanique céleste Vol 1.djvu ). I'll try to review the index pages for volumes 2 through 4 within the next few days so that they can move into proofreading. Also, take a look at Author:Pierre-Simon Laplace and Author:Nathaniel Bowditch. You might want to add this Somerville book under "Works" on the Laplace author page.

Since there's probably a lot of overlap between this Somerville work and Mécanique céleste -- especially when it comes to equations -- how do you feel about using direct <math> markup for both works? It seems to be widely used on Wikipedia. Outlier59 (talk) 02:45, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

second scan for proofreading illegible fine print

[This scan used for fine print illegible in this copy. Zoeannl (talk) 11:33, 12 July 2020 (UTC)