Meron Estefanos on Eritrean refugee advocacy, online harassment and self-care

by by the Whose Knowledge?

Episode 22 of Whose Voices? podcast, in collaboration with Femininja Podcast [FEMNET] | November 2023

Meron Estefanos on Eritrean refugee advocacy, online harassment and self-care

Reviewed by Soizic Pénicaud

Youlendree Appasamy: Welcome to the Femininja Podcast. This series was co-curated and co-hosted with our friends at Whose Knowledge?. These episodes were recorded during the Decolonizing the internet Eeast Africa gathering in Lusaka, Zambia. We want to let you know that this podcast contains sensitive information that may be triggering or difficult to hear. Listener discretion is advised.

Kerubo Onsoti: Good afternoon. My name is Kerubo Onsoti from FEMNET, and I work there as a digital media officer. And I'm happy to be joined by my fellow host.

Youlendree Appasamy: I'm Youlendree Appasamy. I am the communications associate for the #VisibleWikiWomen campaign at Whose Knowledge?. And today we have the wonderful…

Meron Estefanos: Meron Estefanos, thank you for having me. (laughs)

Kerubo Onsoti: She just told us she's done radio for 20 years. [inaudible]

Kerubo Onsoti: So we'll just get right into it, Meron., Welcome to the podcast, the show.

Meron Estefanos: Thank you.

Kerubo Onsoti: So just give us a brief background of who you are, what you do, maybe, if you want to, where you're coming from.

Meron Estefanos: I'm Meron Estefanos, I'm Swedish Eritrean. I left Eritrea when I was 12 years old. I've lived in Sweden most of my life, being originally from Eritrea, but at the same time having no clue how Eritrea was, how back home was. So one day I just decided, oh, I'm going back home. I'm moving actually. And so I packed up and moved to Eritrea. And when I got there I had no clue that it was dictatorship. So it was shocking to be in a place where everybody have to do military service, women and men. And so girls that were my age have been doing their military service for many years. So Eritrea is a country where everybody from age 15, 16 have to do military service until you are 50. So that means to get discharged, you are 50 or old, and as a woman, what can you be when you're 50? Because, basically, they have taken all your golden years and by the time you're discharged, you are just damaged goods. That's what it is. So even for the men, so coming from Sweden, having grown up in Sweden from a democratic country, coming to Eritrea was just shocking to me. Seeing every block in the street, you are being asked for permission paper, because everybody's in a military, the whole country is in a military. So when you are out on the streets in cities, different cities, there's always military police asking, “what are you doing here”? Because a young person is not supposed to be in a city. You're supposed to be at a military camp. And I would just show my Swedish passport and for me, they would just let me pass, while my younger brother, who has been doing military service like forever, had to hide and he would be hunted because he did not report back to his post two days ago or something, then he would be rounded up and taken back. So just as a person who grew up reading about the Holocaust, it just reminded me, I felt like the military police were the Gestapos asking Jewish people for ID just to see if they were Jewish or not. So that just did not make sense. After living there for two years, I decided to go back to Eritrea, I mean, to go back to Sweden, and I had no plan of becoming an activist or anything. But it was like when I meet Eritreans that grew up in Sweden with me, they were very pro-dictatorship and they would say “Eritrea is on the right track, everything is beautiful”. I'd be like: ”nope, I lived there for two years and people are being hunted down and young people cannot go to school. They don't have a life to live. I mean basically they're slaves of the regime in Eritrea.” So all my friends start pushing me away saying “oh, she's a traitor. She's becoming a traitor or something.” So you had to look for other people that were like-minded. So they kind of made me into the activist that I'm today, even though I had no intention into opposing or becoming an activist, but it just became, you know, I felt like I had to do something about it. I just could not ignore what was going on back home, even though I lived in Sweden. So I decided to join groups, young people that was opposing or that were activists. And in Sweden there were many opposition groups, but they didn't inspire me and I'm the kind of person who I cannot join unless there is an inspiration somewhere. So most of the opposition groups were talking bad about each other instead of selling their ideas to recruit you. So I felt like, no, I'm not joining these groups. But there was these young university students in South Africa, Eritreans that were studying abroad in South Africa and got fed up and formed themselves as an organization and they were so inspiring. The reason that they were inspiring was they were young people that I knew back home as a kid and some of them were children of ministers and going against their fathers. And so that was so cool. And so I contacted them and I said, can I be your member? Even though I'm in Sweden, I'm not in South Africa. They said, yeah, sure. So I joined this group, Eritrean Movement for Democracy and Human Rights. It was a youth movement based in South Africa. So that same group a few months later decided to have a radio that was broadcasting into Eritrea because since 2001, September 2001, the free press was banned. So it's exactly 21 years now for the people in Eritrea, they have only one state media, one TV, one radio, one newspaper, and it's all just like the regime propaganda. So if you're the person that follows only the state media, that means the Arab Spring never happened. Gaddafi is still in power, Mubarak is still in power, because it was never reported. So we felt there is a lack of information and our people, the internet connection to Eritrea, the penetration is - 3 to 6% of people have access to internet. Those that have access to internet, or majority of the people, they go to internet cafes. But you have to register your name, your ID, and which computer, from what time to what time that you use. So it's like there is no safety at all for somebody to use internet because you'd get arrested within a second if you opened up pages that you're not supposed to open. So we just felt like, how do we reach the people? So we decided to do short wave because short wave, anybody can afford it. You don't even need a TV or anything. People need only a battery, at least, even if there is no electricity. So that's from a new activism. And then I embarked into journalism even though I don't have journalism background, but the group were so great, literally teaching me how to record, how to edit, how to send and all this. At that time we didn't even know if people were listening to us because there was no feedback. So we started getting feedback like three, four years later because people would be like, oh, I used to listen to you when I was in Eritrea, but this is after they flee when they're outside. So it took years to get feedback if people actually listened to us or not. Okay, of course, people that we knew were listening to us, but we didn't know how much or how big was it. Then 2009, another friend was talking about, oh, let's do radio, but doing it 24 hours. And so we switched to satellite 24 hours and did two hours, short wave as well. So my program at the beginning was, I was covering non-violence movements, human rights, everything was political, so for the first four years. But then I just felt frustrated. I felt like I'm not really helping the people inside Eritrea. I'm too far away. And so I just said, if I cannot help Eritreans inside Eritrea, so let me focus on Eritreans that are outside, because it's the same, they are Eritreans, so why should I just focus on the people inside? Because of the dictatorship, as I said, everybody have to do military service age 15 to 50. So Eritreans think the only solution is, like, to flee. So next to Syrians, we are the second-largest refugee-producing country on Earth, per capita. And we are like a population of 3.6 and over a million have already fled the past 20 years. So it's like we are getting extinct in Eritrea. Only old people and children are left because there is no young people. It's like the most empty city that you would find. If you went to the capital, you would be shocked how there are too little people in the capital. If you go anywhere in Africa, it's very crowded, capital cities are often very crowded, but not in Eritrea. So you know, I decided, let me interview refugees. And it was supposed to be one interview. That's it, just one. So this guy, I was talking to him on social media and he said that his brother was kidnapped and sold as a slave in Egypt and they were asking $20,000 per person. And I was like, no, you must be kidding. He said, no, for real. My brother is one of those that are kidnapped right now. So he said, if you don't believe me, call them. And so the first 24 hours I just decided, no, this is just, it can't be true. Even though I've heard refugees getting kidnapped before, but the amount was like $2,000 or something. So nobody bothered. People were just paying because it was so little. So he gives me the phone number. So the first 24 hours I just decided to ignore it. Just say, “no, this just must be a lie”. But I have this… My conscience couldn't allow me, I couldn't sleep the whole night. I was struggling to sleep. I'm like, “what if it's true, and I totally decided to dismiss them”? So I woke up at six because I couldn't sleep. And I normally call using calling apps like Skype or VoIP or something. But that morning, because I was just distressed and I was thinking, what if it's true or not, lemme just call and find out. So I used my landline number and called them. And so this guy picked up, he sounds like 20-, 21-year-old young man. And now he was asking, “who do you want to speak to”? And I was like, ”no, I don't know anybody. My name is Meron, I'm a journalist, and I heard about the situation here and I would like to interview people”. So the guy was crying, but the way he was crying was just so touching because I've never heard a 21-year-old man cry like a little baby. It was just too much. The way he cried was just so touching. And he was telling me that while escaping Eritrea, because you know 5 to 6,000 young people are fleeing on a monthly basis to Sudan. So some gangs start waiting at the border and kidnapping these people. And when you are new, you don't know where you're going. So they just tell you, oh, you want to go to the refugee camp? We'll help you! But what you don't know is they're just putting you in a car and selling you off to the Bedouins in Egypt where you would be auctioned as a slave and people will buy you. So there are so many traffickers. What they do is they have kidnapped maybe 2,000 Eritreans and then they would put them in an auction and tell you, who do you have outside? And so the ones that have people in the US will be in this line, the one that have people in Europe would be in the other line. And then half of the group will be like, we don't have anyone, but we have people in Eritrea. We are Eritreans. And so the traffickers that are there would pick. The ones that are in the US would be sold off with a higher amount while those in Europe maybe will be sold off the same amount. And those that doesn't have anyone in the US would be sold off maybe for a thousand dollars a person. And then these traffickers take you. So they have actually built houses for torture, just for torture purposes. So the houses are built to torture these people. It's in the middle of nowhere and it's a demilitarized zone. So military cannot come. They know. And so this group, it was a group of 29, the ones that I interviewed, and it was only one female, all 28 male. And so when they were telling me about the torture method, I just couldn't believe because they were getting tortured 24 hours, burned by molten plastic bags and dripping it in their backs and electrifying them with 360 degrees of electricity. And it was just everything that sadistic was being committed to these innocent refugees. And on top of that gang rape as a way to punish you, five, six men would rape the man, the woman. And then they would force you to call your family. So your family have to listen as you're getting raped. So that's what makes you pay, because you cannot tolerate the phone calls. So families will pay anything just not to hear their loved ones screaming and getting raped and getting burned, and you're forced to listen. So I just couldn't believe that at this time when people are talking about “slavery was abolished a long time ago”, and then this was being committed by Africans against other Africans. So that just did not adapt to me. And so it was touching, but what was the problem was the hostages had saved my number because I called using my landline. So 24 hours people are calling me. Every hostage is begging: “Please, my sister, please help me, please help me. I have no one to help me”, but I'm like, $20,000 a person: I don't have that! Even if I live in Europe, it's just too much! So the group said, okay, we understand it's too much. But so they said, okay, just save the girl, because she was the only girl, and the punishment for her was worse, because the traffickers would rape her and then they would force her fellow hostages to rape her as well as a punishment, because nobody was paying for her, she comes from a very poor family, she had no one that could pay. So I was very touched by her story, and at first I was so naive because I felt like the West would care because I just felt like, it's because they don't know. If I notify everyone, then they would just go and rescue them and this will just stop. I was that naive. So I'm emailing the State of Department, European Union, European Commission, every organization I can think of, Amnesty, Human Rights Watch, every anti-trafficking organization in the world. I've emailed. And I waited three weeks, nobody cared. So by the time it went on three weeks, five of the hostages that I have interviewed had died already as a result of torture. Then I just said, “I cannot just sit and do nothing”. So I know paying ransom, it'll increase, but what else do you do when it's your loved one and your option is like, you pay or you die? So I decided to raise money using my radio program, and I was like, “anybody wants to save this girl, just contact me, and I'll tell you how to send the money.” And so I ended up paying for her, but then when you pay for one person, every hostage hears about you. And what was supposed to be one phone call became my lifetime commitment, fighting these traffickers and saving the hostages. And so, one thing led to another and then just my radio program became, from a regular radio program, became like a hotline for refugees. So it could be refugees that are in the Mediterranean Sea drowning. They're like, they don't even know my name. Meron is a unisex name, so they don't even know if it's a girl, if it's female or male. But so my number is usually written in prisons in Libya, Egypt or elsewhere. And they say: “if you have a problem, call this number”. So they don't really know who they're calling, but they would call and say, “oh, we're 800 African refugees drowning in the Mediterranean Sea and we need your help, and our life is in your hand. After God, you're the only person that can save us.” And I haven't asked for a responsibility, that kind of responsibility. But what can you do, when these people are, when they're drowning, you cannot just tell them “you know what? I'm busy” or something. So the first call was the worst because it took like 78 hours to send them help, because, the European bureaucracy… saving these people would mean taking in 800 Black Africans into Europe. So Italy was telling me, oh no, they're closer to Malta. Call Malta. And Malta is like, no, they're closer to Italy. It went like 78 hours without, by that time the water was almost up to their neck and they're screaming and begging me, like I am the one that gets to decide. So I just went out on Twitter and started tweeting about this, how Italians and Maltese refuse to rescue 800 African refugees drowning in the Mediterranean Sea. So that kind of followers, I mean most of my followers are Western journalists, so they kind of picked up the story and start writing. So the Maltese government, at last, you know, because when journalists start writing about it, they felt like they had to rescue them, and so they rescued them. But that became like, now everybody heard “because we called her when we were drowning, and thanks to her, we are alive”. So then people start saving my number before they leave Africa, just in case they run into some kind of problem. And calls you from all over the world. It could be refugees about to be deported to one place where they could face death sentence or something, trying to stop their deportation. It could be refugees kidnapped, drowning in the Mediterranean Sea, getting exploited. It's just a never ending suffering like that the refugees go through in order to reach from one place to… since there is no safe passage. So people will always be exploited. So basically, this is what I've been doing. I was supposed to be this regular journalist, but it became like a hotline where a lot of people hate listening to my program because it's always screaming and someone begging and it's too traumatizing. A lot of people don't like listening to people suffering. So often a lot of my friends tell me, “oh, I stopped listening to your program because it's too depressing or, you make me feel hopeless”. But for me, the reason I always bring up in my program the worst stories is to discourage people from fleeing to tell them, “This is what happens when you flee. So if you are going to die in the Mediterranean Sea or if you're going to die as a result of torture, so why not just sit at home and fight back whatever is driving you out of the country?” So that's the message of my program. But I don’t know, my hope is at least from 10 people that listen, if I can discourage one, that's a success. And that's why I've been doing this for many, many years and now taking a break after 20 years, doing this for 20 years, I just got fed up. I said, that's it. I'm not crying anymore, because for how long am I going to cry?

Kerubo Onsoti: Thank you. Thank you so much, Meron, for taking us through your journey. And it's so touching, and just learning that in 2022, we still have people who have limited access to the internet. These stories have not been told anywhere. I'm hearing this honestly for the first time, because no one is telling the stories and you cannot do it by yourself. And we need more people to be able to jump on this discussion so that people can be saved. And I don't know if much can be done about the government, the Eritrean government, I know that's a very tough conversation to have, but I'd just like to know from you, how has the internet helped you? First, do you feel like it has helped you? And if yes, how do you feel that it has helped you in your journey and your cause?

Meron Estefanos: Oh, well, I mean, to me, I'm a product of internet. My activism started online, so I met like-minded people. If it wasn't for social media, I wouldn't be the activist. I mean, I wouldn't even care about Eritrea if I'm going to be honest. But having social media discussions with fellow Eritreans in diaspora and discussing: “what do we do?” That's how we all became activists. So social media, we Eritreans, at least for us Eritreans in diaspora, it's the best thing that happened to us because at least we have this large diaspora community and having… I mean, way before Facebook started, so I'm talking about 20 years ago, we were using Paltalk. It was like audio chat that was very popular. And so that's where I actually made the group in South Africa. If it wasn't for Paltalk, I wouldn't even join these people. So to me, internet has been great, but at the same time, it can be, as a woman, it can be awful as well, because it's a place where… you can use it for so many things, but at the same time, it's also, it has its negative side, which is getting trolled as a woman. It’s like no matter what ideas you have, people never discuss your ideas. It's always about body-shaming you and belittling you as a woman or how you look or whatever. But it can be very brutal at times. And I remember when my son was five and he was diagnosed with diabetic type one. And so I was at the hospital, not knowing, because it just happened yesterday, so you're at the hospital, you don't know if he's going to live or die because I was clueless about child diabetic at that time. So here I'm worrying. And so I have this large community that is like, at that time 90% were supporting the Eritrean government. So they just heard about that my son was in a hospital, I was at the hospital, and so suddenly they just put it out my number I think, or the hospital number, and they would call and say, “I hope your son dies, you fucking traitor, you deserve it” or something. So that gets to you, when you're worrying about your son if he will live it or not, and then you have these trolls that you don't even know, just because you criticize the president, and these people feel they have a right to actually look for your number and call you when you are in your most stressful moment. And so it gets to you. But I am thick-skinned, so I try not to let them, but instead we have a long way to go because social media companies are not taking their responsibility. Especially when it comes to minority rights, we're not being protected. If somebody insults you in English, action is taken away right away. They will take action to block the person or delete the post or whatever. But if someone… you know, there's this Facebook post that have been up for at least six, seven months now. Since January, actually, almost nine months. It says: “oh, those of you that live in Sweden, please knock off her teeth and cripple her”. This was a call for all Eritreans that love their country. If they love their country, they should do this to me. And then it also attached my Twitter account and says, go also on Twitter and tell her what you think about her.

So suddenly I noticed there were so many trolls. I'm used to all the trolls on Twitter. I know them already, but then now was new names and a bunch of them at once. I'm like, what's going on? What have I done this time? What did I say? But I've been very busy during that week I didn't really say anything. But then a friend of mine comes the same week from the States to visit me. I was like, oh, let's take out my friend to Eritrean nightclub, which, I don't really go to Eritrean nightclubs often. I go maybe once every five years or something just to avoid people. So we go there. For the first time, there were seven attacks against me that same night at the nightclub. And I did not understand, because normally people line up to ask for autograph, to take a picture with me. But this was something new and I was like, “strange, why?”. Because I see one of my friends is fighting there, but what my friends were doing is the fight was about me, but they were trying to keep me away so that I didn't hear that it was about me. So I thought they're fighting with different people, but the next day, the night they are telling me, no, the fight was about you because they were on their way to attack you. So we were trying to prevent them and I was just like, what's going on? So a friend of mine that lives in Stockholm, I was telling her about this and she's like, oh yeah, it could be because of the Facebook post. Then she sends me the link, then it makes sense. It also made sense why the trolls on Twitter suddenly increased because now these are like Facebook trolls coming to Twitter. I've reported this post maybe 10, 15 times on Facebook. It’s still up there. No matter how many times you report it, social media companies are not taking our suffering seriously. They would never do that to a European or any other, I mean, it's bad for others as well, but at least when it's written with European languages, actions are taken. If it's in Swedish, be it in Swedish or… even though the Swedish population is 10 million, you have larger population here. But of course they're going to take Sweden more serious than here in Africa or African languages or Arabic language; like, Asian languages are often totally neglected. So that part I hate about Facebook, I mean about internet. So the whole “how social media companies, like a bunch of young men that became millionaires, billionaires, are deciding over our life. They're selling out data, they're doing so many things”. So that part I don't like, but it's the greatest creation. At the same time, internet has connected us all over the world. I mean, if it wasn't for internet, we wouldn't be in this conference as well.

Kerubo Onsoti: That is true. I think you've just reminded me of someone who, he's a creator of some platform that people use to Photoshop faces and how they like to pretend and say : when we were creating this thing, we wanted it to be for the good of the people. We didn't know it was going to become this really terrible thing that people use against others”. I feel like that's social media for us. And you've mentioned, I really wanted to ask you about your colonization internet story, which honestly we have heard, because if they even considered our languages, if they even took time to include our languages in their systems and when they're creating these applications and involving people, maybe it wouldn't have gone that far. If they took our reporting seriously, it would never have gotten that far. Or maybe if more white people had reported, maybe they would've been like, “oh, maybe this is serious”. But you see, it doesn't have to get to that point. And so for me, what I would ask you is then what does decolonization mean to you?

Meron Estefanos: Yeah, well, decolonization is restoring things the way it was supposed to be. It started for me, for a lot of people, it might be removing things when we're talking about decolonization, but to me it's like, how was it before our colonizers came over here? And so I want to start there. I want to know about Africa before our colonizers arrived. So it have to start from there, but it's just putting knowledge out there that whatever knowledge is that you want to put. So it depends on what term. lot of people would be like, “oh, Africa is decolonized”, but not really. Are we really decolonized? I mean we are still colonized, whether it's economically or… okay, so the British left, but it feels Africa is under Chinese colonization right now. I mean, go to Uganda. The Ugandan airport is owned by Chinese company because they couldn't pay for it. So actually the Chinese can take it or do whatever they want to with the Ugandan airport. So if we go to every country in Africa right now, it's like we're seeing this economical colonization and new form. And then of course there is this information colonization as well where the US is telling you: “you’re either on our side or that side”. So either have to buy that story or that story. There is no in between. It doesn't allow you to have your own opinion to choose and decide what makes sense to you. But everything is decided. So we're still colonized, at least for us Black people. And that's why wherever we go, we have no respect. Whether be it in Europe, I see Africans are dying, more Black people are dying in Europe on a daily basis using the Mediterranean Sea or Aegean Sea, but then Europeans like to mock Americans and say ‘Black Lives Matter’. I'm like, come on, give me a break. You're killing more Black people here. Only thing is just the media is not talking about it. Blacks in Europe are not protesting the way Blacks in America are protesting. This is the only difference. So are still colonized, be it information, financially, physically, or in any way. Yeah.

Youlendree Appasamy: I think I definitely agree on your point of the legacies of colonialism being so internalized and entrenched. And we have new powers coming in from the East into Africa in construction, in extractive economies that the old colonial superpowers developed here. And I guess I wanted to ask you more about what you think tech possibilities or tech tools for a different future could be, maybe from the work you're doing with DAIR. I know we've spoken about crypto.

Meron Estefanos: So, I'm into Bitcoin, but I don't look at Bitcoin as something like most people think of Bitcoin, of how to make money and save and make double the amount or whatever you invest, but that's not the case with me. Why I'm interested in Bitcoin is like it's a freedom money. Bitcoin doesn't discriminate. Anybody can own a Bitcoin, especially here in Africa. When you have 80% of Africans who are unbanked, around 80% have no IDso how do we expect for anything to work for us, you get me? So it becomes difficult. So you are automatically left behind because you don't have a bank account. In Sweden, my son had a bank account since he was 5-year-old. So that's like… the difference is huge. And for a lot of people, they're just thinking, what's the point of having a bank or not? But why not? without a bank, then you cannot borrow money, you cannot invest. I mean, you are being left behind a lot of things just because you don't have ID. Even if I want to send you money, it becomes difficult for you to accept money because you don't have ID, you don't have a bank account. So you would be dependent on Hawala money transfers, like illegal means, and there's no guarantee that you'll get your money or not. So I start looking at Bitcoin as a way of basic right for every human being because all you need is just a wallet, download an app, and all you need is an email. You don't need to put your name, you don't need to put anything. So the anonymity of it is what attracts me because how much money we have in our bank account is supposed to be private. No government is supposed to know how much you have in your account or whether if I send money, they will ask, why are you sending this money to that person? So it's an invasion of our privacy, but unfortunately, the world has accepted it for far too long. It has become the normal thing. People would be like, yeah, of course, it's a government, they have to know how much money you have. Nope, they don't. It's my private way there, how much money I save or how much money I spend should be private. But we don't have that privacy. So that's where Bitcoin comes and it gives you 100% total anonymity, receiving it, sending it. It helps in many ways. I use it as a way of transferring money. So I've been teaching refugees. I do workshops for refugees and vulnerable groups on Bitcoin, and most of them are saying, thank you, you have made my life easy. Because they don't have to depend on Hawala, they don't have to need ID or anything. I send Bitcoin using lightning wallets, and it arrives within a second and it's almost free. So it's really great. And there are ways that you can convert your Bitcoin into money, into fiat money within a second. It makes life easy for everybody, and I feel more Africans should use it for these purposes, as money transfer, faster, anonymous. Especially for organizations, you know, a lot of African governments don't allow foreign aid. You'll be accused of being a foreign spy just because you received $200 donation from the US or somewhere else. So a lot of people, a lot of NGOs are suffering, because they cannot get money even though many want to fund them. But it has become difficult because this government would go after you just for receiving whatever amount of money. But Bitcoin doesn't do that. You can just receive money secretly. And even if governments would arrest you. So for an organization, the key is like three keys, three people in different places. So if you get arrested and they torture you and you give up your code, they still cannot access your Bitcoin because they would need the other two people to give them the codes for them to access and see how much money you have. So, that's what I love about it. And so I'm into that, trying, especially right now I'm in Africa, and the main reason that I came to Africa is to teach Bitcoin. But not only that but to start Bitcoin mining. But there's this thing, it's a new project that I'm trying. Bitcoin mining is what I am trying to give villagers in Africa that do not have electricity to give them free electricity using solar power at the same time you’re mining. So I'm trying out this project, it's early. I don't want to say much about it, but it's in the works. So there's a lot you can do when it comes to tech, I mean this is crypto, but I'm also interested in providing Eritrean people access to internet. It is something that I've been working on for many, many years. So Iranians found a way because the Iranian government is very strict, controls the internet and everything. So opposition figures have been, their movements have been limited online. And some Iranian activists actually created an internet where you can send internet via satellite dish to anywhere in the world for free. And so these people, all they need is if they have a satellite dish, then you just put a USB stick and download two gigabytes at a time, like fast internet and that the government cannot control. So this is what I'm trying to do for Eritrea, and hopefully it'll be, I mean, it's doable, but the problem is always money. It would cost at least 1 million dollars to do that. But hopefully one day I'll do it.

Youlendree Appasamy: My head is just like, I'm still processing. Everything you’ve been telling us, I'm just like, damn. You've also just kind of traveled across the length and breadth of human experience and being an observer participant, a witness to so many things that so many of us on the African continent are oblivious to and don't know about. And if our internet infrastructures and if our content and the narrative we were reading online was more centred on us and on our stories and created by us, that wouldn't be the case, right?

Meron Estefanos: Of course. Yeah. I mean definitely. I mean, you know how they say history is written by the winners, so whoever is in power writes history the way they want to. That's why I was saying earlier, we don't really know much about Africa before the colonization because all the books that existed were burned or destroyed so that we can't even learn about our background, which is really sad because we know this is the ancestral continent, but at the same time, the West is trying to tell you it's just this continent that didn't even exist. That's the way people treat us. I mean, if you're in Europe, a Black woman or a Black person, you are discriminated for being dark skinned and you're deprived all kinds of opportunities just because of your skin color or you happen to have an African name. So you are left behind a lot of things just because of your skin color. And what pisses me off as an African who grew up in Europe, and whenever I come to Africa, I’m more discriminated in Africa. So we have this colorism problem in Africa where we respect people that are light skinned better than dark skin.

Youlendree Appasamy: I think you're talking about discrimination both in Europe and then also how in Africa, discrimination takes on a colorism kind of bend.

Meron Estefanos: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's so sad because when I'm in Europe, you're like, “okay”, you accept it because if you're like, “oh, you are in a white man's land, what can you do”? But when you come to your continent, to Africa, the first thing, to me, it's strange. When I first arrive in Africa and then I see everybody's Black and I feel like, where am I? Because I'm not used to it. Normally you see two, three Black people within a million of white people. And then here, just having that, seeing everybody Black, it gives you this sense of home feeling, even though I'm not in Eritrea, I'm in Zambia right now, but I feel like I'm at home. This is my continent, and I feel like it belongs to me as much as it belongs to Zambians, because we're all Africans. So that's the way I feel. But unfortunately that's not the case. It doesn't matter if you came from Europe or not, but all they see is your dark skin and you are mistreated everywhere you go. It's always… I remember a few years ago I went on vacation to Dakar. We were denied. Me and my friend, we were two Black women staying in Radisson Blue hotel, and they refused to serve us, the waiters, the Black waiters, because they thought two Black women cannot afford to have a drink at this expensive hotel. So we actually had to call the white manager. He had to tell them: “it's okay, serve them”. And then eight hours later, the people that were working changed shift and new staff came and they refused to serve us again. So we had to go to the same manager and complain, and they had to tell them: “no, serve them”. So this happens everywhere you go. When I'm flying Ethiopian Airlines, this will happen. Anything you ask, when you tell them, they put on music, which is weird. I've never seen someone inside airplane, people normally don't play music, but they do. So when you tell them, can you put it down? Because sometimes it's too loud. I'm like, please, I want to listen to my own music, not to your music! But they'll be like, ignoring you, “who does she think she is?” kind of thing. And then a white person says, “excuse me”. And then they'll be like: “yes, sir, we are sorry for that”. And I'm like, come on. I mean, this is the reason where we are because until the moment we start loving our color, we will always be hated wherever we are. So that makes me sad, and I wish that internet could help change that, but unfortunately, it hasn’t. Of course there is this African solidarity, Pan-African movements online and things, but often I find them to be hypocritical because they'll be like, what they have in common is their hate for white people, but nothing really about Africa. I'm like, “hold your governments accountable first”. I mean, okay, we can talk about colonization, what it did to us, I mean, the conflicts it left behind. But still, to me, our biggest problem is not, like, our colonizers. It's like, our leaders that will appease these colonizers to continue to oppress us. There is no, when Blacks are dying every day in the Mediterranean Sea, the African Union doesn't say anything.

Youlendree Appasamy: Oh, the African Union, they're the most useless.

Meron Estefanos: Exactly. So if your own people don't respect you, how do you expect foreigners to respect you? And that's what drives me crazy about Africa.

Youlendree Appasamy: Have dignity for yourself and respect yourself, loving yourself.

Meron Estefanos: But then again, how can we love ourselves? Because all our life, our ancestors have been told how primitive they are. They're uncivilized. “You're this, you are that”. Africans were walking around naked and they were very free people. And then white people came and told them, “oh, you're so uncivilized. How can you just not cover yourself? Please cover yourself.” So they humiliate them into wearing clothes that they never felt comfortable with. And now white people are telling us: “Africans are so primitive because they cover themselves all over their body”. I'm like, come on! You can't win. You're the ones that made us into wearing clothes, and now you're telling us “why are you covering yourself? You're so primitive.” Yeah, it's crazy.

Youlendree Appasamy: So I think as we're talking about the more psychological and emotional aspects, the psychic aspects to colonialism, something I wanted to ask you about just through your experiences as a journalist, as somebody who has their PhD in refugee studies, how does self-care factor into your life? How do you process hearing these really traumatic and traumatizing stories? Or do you process it? I mean, also we don't need to talk about it. It was just something that came to mind.

Meron Estefanos: Yeah, I mean the first 17 years was like, I was just keeping myself very busy, because when you don't have time, you don't have time to process, so it doesn't get to you. A lot of people were warning me, “you're going to get burned out. You're going to get, that's it. You're just… one day it's going to hit you. You're going to be depressed and it would be hard to get up again.” And I was just keeping myself busy by doing so many things. Like my phone is on 24/7, I never turn off my phone, and I'm always doing so many things. I'm the kind of person that liked doing 10 things at the same time. And so that kind of worked. But then when Covid came, that's the first time, as a person that has been doing 150 trips a year minimum, and suddenly I’ve been sitting two whole years at home. So when first Covid hit and I was just sitting and I wanted to tweet a thread about the stories that touch me most. And so I was telling each story of refugees that have touched me so far. But when I reached story number six, I was so exhausted, and it felt like I was back at that time. I went into deep depression for the whole year. All I did was just stay in bed and binge-watch series and things. So my body needed that. So I was like, I will do that. So I think that's the first time that it hit me. But luckily, the past seven years I've been going to the gym and it kind of saved my life. The past two years and a half, if it wasn't for the gym, I would have been like, I wouldn't get up from the PTSD that I was feeling at that time. It was totally triggered because I haven't processed all these things for many, many years. So it all hit me all at once, and it was awful. No matter what I did, no matter how depressed I was, one thing I was doing was like, “nope, I'm not stopping going to the gym”. At least I have to do that at least one hour a day. So doing that at least one hour a day kind of gave me the energy that I needed. So that was a way of… I could get up from the bed at least, at least, even if it's for one hour, and go and work out and come back after one hour and do the same thing, sleep the whole day. But it didn't hit me mentally. I think it was the exercise that helped. So it is not easy. Trauma is, especially when it comes to activists, most of us suffer and we hardly think about ourselves, and there's no self-love. But as you get older, you learn and then you say to yourself, “if I'm not well, then I cannot even give the help that I'm giving to others right now”. So I'm trying to put myself first and to at least give myself an hour a day where I could do whatever it is that I want to. It could be reading, it could be going to the gym or going to a spa or anything. But just where I feel this is “me” time. And during that time, I don't want to give anybody an attention. It's my hour. Now at least I'm trying to do that.

Kerubo Onsoti: Yeah, yeah, for sure. I actually wanted to ask you about how you take care of yourself, because that's a lot. And for all those years, that's a lot. Taking in all that energy, I can't even begin to imagine what that was like. But so, looking at the past two days, we've had the “decolonizing the internet” sessions. What would you say is your biggest takeaway? It could be 1, 2, 3.

Meron Estefanos: I mean, just being here and meeting…, I didn't know, I mean, I know there are African feminists, but I didn't know that there are this many African feminists, young and into tech. So that part was the coolest part, I think, meeting many strong African feminists in one place. I think that that is the biggest takeaway of this event. But of course, the discussions were interesting as well, people have different perspectives. The way I see it, because me growing up in Europe, and if you've grown up here in Africa, so the way you see things and the way I see things, it's totally different. So that part was interesting, how it applies for different person, what decolonizing the internet could mean. I mean, just the space, having a space, I mean, we don't even have that. So having this space and networking with this many African women, I will cherish that. And yeah.

Kerubo Onsoti: No, I totally, totally understand. And maybe just before we wrap up, is there anything you'd like to tell the world? This is going to go on platforms, we are going to share it everywhere. So is there anything that you'd love to just tell the people who will be listening to your voice?

Meron Estefanos: Yeah, I mean, what I would like to say to your listeners is: just pick up and try to give. And it gives you pleasure, it gives you peace of mind. So I see a lot of people often, especially Africans, majority of us are pessimists who say “but things, it's not going to change.” I get that all the time. Whenever in Africa it is like, “you think you can change this government”? I'm like, “but if you don't start, you can never change”. So 1% can change a lot. So if as a single mother, raising two kids by myself and running radio from my kitchen for the past 20 years and managed to save over 30,000 people, if I can do that by myself, why not you? So I hope that I get to inspire young people into doing some good work in your community. Start small. It always, you can start small, but don't get discouraged. If there's someone inspired, you can reach out to me on Twitter, on Facebook. I'm happy to be a big sister for anyone interested. So just stand up for your rights because nobody will. And so my advice is like, let's just not sit and wait for somebody to change for us. We have to take action. All of us are responsible for the life that we have. People complain always about this country, that country,e there’s no job or there's not this, there is not that, right? But at the same time, I always ask about, “what are you doing about it”? So be the person that do instead of the person that complains or, this is my advice to everyone, and thank you for having me.

Kerubo Onsoti: Thank you. This was so intense. Like you said, stand up for yourself because no one else will.

Youlendree Appasamy: Thank you for being on our podcast, for your generosity, for your fierceness, for your intellect, for your tenacity, your resilience. Oh, thank you, Meron.

Meron Estefanos: My pleasure. Thank you.

Femininja outro: Hey, Thank you, thank you. Thank you very much for joining us for the Femininja podcast. We really believe and trust that you have enjoyed our conversations, and they have pricked some thinking, some kind of wanting to find out more about feminism, about patriarchy, and what is the role for each one of us in detonating patriarchy and proudly and boldly claiming ourselves as feminists. So stay tuned, keep following us and engage with us on FEMNET’s website, www.femnet.org. Thank you.

Youlendree Appasamy: You can follow Whose Knowledge? on Twitter, at @whoseknowledge.