Report from the Select Committee on Steam Carriages/Farey

by House of Commons, Great Britain

Mercuri, 10^e die Augusti, 1831.

 

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John Farey, Esquire, called in; and Examined.

 

Have the goodness to state your profession?—I am an Engineer.

How long have you been so?—It is twenty-five years since I began my studies; I have been much employed by inventors, to assist them in bringing forward new inventions of a mechanical nature, and in establishing them as practical businesses, when they have been sufficiently perfect to admit of so doing.

Have you turned your attention to the subject of propelling Stage Coaches or other Carriages by Steam Power on common roads, instead of by horses?—I have had occasion to prepare specifications of several such inventions for which Patents have been taken out, and have in consequence paid a close attention to that subject; I have also been consulted to settle the plans for the practical execution of Steam Coaches, but I have not directed or superintended any such execution myself. Of the specifications I have prepared, three have been followed up by building Coaches, which have actually travelled on common roads; viz. Mr. Gurney's. Mr. Hancock's, and Messrs. Heaton's; I believe those three are the only trials amongst many others which have had so much success as to have been persisted in to the present time. I have examined other Steam Coaches, but they had no chance of success, and have been abandoned.

Will you state generally your opinion as to the probability of this mode of propelling Carriages super seding the necessity of using horses?—All that has been hitherto done, or which is now doing, in that way, must, I think, be considered as experimentaltrials. I have no doubt whatever but that a steady perseverance in such trials will lead to the general adoption of Steam Coaches, and that at an earlier or later period, according to the activity and intelligence with which an experimental course is conducted; and I am firmly convinced that the perfection which is essential to their successful adoption will never be attained by any other course than that of reiterated trials. The difficulties with which the Steam Coach inventors are at present contending are chiefly of a practical nature, which, I think, are not likely to be avoided by any great efforts of genius or invention; but I expect that they may be surmounted one after another by the experience which may be gained by competent mechanicians in a course of practice. I do not look for much more invention as necessary to the establishment of Steam Coaches; but it is certain that the practice is indispensable. Each of the three inventors I have named has brought his Steam Coach to that state which renders it a full-sized model for making such experiments as serve to prove the principle of action, and to teach how a better Coach may be made the next time, but nothing more. The probability that such next better coach will be sufficiently perfect to answer as a trading business, depends as much upon the natural judgment and acquired skill of each inventor, as upon the qualifications of his present production.

Has the experience which has already been had of Steam Carriages been such as to enable us to say that it is not merely in theory we have calculated on these Carriages?—Yes; what has been done by the above mentioned inventors, proves to my satisfaction the practicability of impelling Stage Coaches by Steam on good common roads, in tolerable level parts of the country, without horses, at a speed of eight or ten miles an hour. The Steam Coaches I have tried, have made very good progress along the road, but have been very deficient in strength, and consequently in permanency of keeping in repair, also in accommodation for passengers and for luggage; for which reasons they are none of them models to proceed upon to build Coaches as matter of business, From the complexity of their structures and the multiplicity of pieces of which they are composed, it is impracticable to give them the requisite strength by mere addition of materials, because they would then be too heavy to carry profitable loads as stage coaches. I do not consider That it is now a question of theory, for the practicability I conceive to be proved; but many details of execution, which are necessary to a successful practice, are yet in a very imperfect state. My view of the subject will be best understood by stating, that I believe an efficient Steam Carriage might now be made merely to carry despatches, by following the general plan of the best Steam Coach which has yet been produced, improving the proportions wherever experience has shown them to be faulty, using the very best workmanship and materials, and giving a judicious increase of strength to the various parts which require it, allowing all the weight of a load of passengers and luggage, and of the accommodations for them, in additional strength of materials, so that the total weight of the Coach, without any passengers or goods (beyond the people and stores necessary for its own use and one courier), should be as much as the weight of the previous model containing a full load of passengers and luggage If three such Coaches were constructed, one of them might start every morning at each end of any fair line of road 100 or 120 miles long, and one would arrive every evening at each end of that line in less time than a common stage coach; and I should expect that, after twelve months' perseverance, and after making all the improvements and alterations in the machinery which so much experience would suggest, the double passage ought to be made with as much safety and punctuality, and with much more expedition, than by mail. The road between London and Bristol might be taken as a suitable line, but I should expect a pair of horses to be provided at every notable hill, to help the Steam Carriage up Such a proposition, it is obvious, offers no inducement to individuals, because it would be all expence without any return; but if it were judiciously done at public expence, I have no doubt but that it would lead to as much improvement in the mode of execution of future Coaches, as would enable them to be run permanently as stage coaches with profitable loads. The great defect of all the present models, is want of strength to resist the violence to which they are subjected in rapid travelling with a full load; and if that strength were given upon the present construction by the mere addition of materials, they would become too heavy to be efficiently propelled, even if they carried no load in them.

Have you seen the last Coaches of Mr. Gurney and of Mr. Hancock?—I have not minutely examined the last edition of Mr. Gurney's Carriage, but have met it several times on the roads in my neighbourhood, as I have also that of Mr. Hancock; and I have travelled in the latter; but he has enlarged the cylinders of his engine since I have gone in it.

You have seen Mr. Gurney's original boilers; he states that he has altered very little in the form of them?—Yes; I was well acquainted with the construction and performance of all that Mr. Gurney had attained at the time when I specified bis patent, three years ago; and I understand generally the alterations he has since made, though I have not made trial of any of his more recent coaches; the principal change is in separating the engine and machinery from the Carriage which is to convey the passengers, so that there are two four-wheeled carriages, one drawing the other after it; this change involves no very great alteration in the machinery, which, I understand, is nearly the same as it was; but the impelling Carriage in which it is placed is very much lightened by transferring all the passengers to the additional carriage which is drawn. Mr. Hancock continues to follow the original plan of carrying the passengers in the same four-wheeled Carriage with the engine.

As far as your experience has gone, which plan of Steam Carriage do you think will hereafter be most generally resorted to, that of an Engine Carriage, drawing after it another Carriage containing the passengers, or of conveying the passengers in the Carriage in which the machinery is placed?—I have not had experience in drawing by two Carriages, except by the analogy of what is done on railways, and hence I feel some difficulty in speaking positively upon that point; there are advantages and disadvantages to be considered in both modes, but all the mechanical considerations incline to one side, viz. to place the engines in the same Carriage with the passengers; that plan will certainly be lighter than when two separate Carriages are used, and also the weight will be laid on those wheels which are turned by the engines, as it should be, to give them a firmer adherence to the road; also one Carriage will steer and turn much better than two, and will go safer down hill, and will be cheaper to build and to work.

By that means great weight is saved?—Yes; perhaps one-third is saved in exerting an equal power. In stating my opinion of the probability of a profitable result, after twelve months' trial of three coaches to run regularly two hundred miles every day, with despatches only, I contemplated that the engines and passengers would be ultimately in one Carriage, because that plan has a most decided mechanical advantage in making progress along the road, and also in facility of steerage, and safety in going down hill, and fewer servants are required to manage one Carriage than two. On the other hand, all the constructions that have yet been tried with one Carriage, subject the passengers to more or less occasional annoyance from heat and noise, smoke and dust, and there is still an apprehension of danger from the boiler, hence passengers will invariably prefer to go in a separate Carriage to be drawn by the Engine carriage; that mode also offers a facility of changing the engine for another, or for post horses, in case it gets deranged, because the change may be made without unloading, and discomposing the passengers; for common stage coaches these are strong motives to use a separate Carriage, and if it can be brought to bear in comparison with horses, that mode will probably be most generally adopted by the influence of the passengers, although the other mode will inevitably perform the best and attain the greatest speed of travelling.

Taking the two machines of Mr. Gurney and Mr. Hancock in their present state, do you think them entirely free from defects likely to prove dangerous to travellers?—I do not think the danger is at all considerable in either Mr. Gurney's or Mr. Hancock's; there are dangers in all travelling; but I do not think the amount of danger will be at all increased by substituting steam for horses, according to either of those plans.

The question refers to the peculiar danger from the nature of the propelling power?—I am not inclined to think that there is any peculiar danger which would he incurred by the change; and if the engines and passengers are not on the same Carriage, I think the ordinary danger would on the whole he diminished.

The question is with reference to the relative danger of travelling ten miles an hour when drawn by horses, and when propelled by steam at the same rate?—The danger of being run away with and overturned is greatly diminished in a steam coach. It is very difficult to control four such horses as can draw a heavy stage coach ten miles an hour in case they are frightened, or choose to run away, and for such quick travelling they must be kept in that state of courage that they are always inclined for running away, particularly down hill, and at sharp turns in the road. The steam power has very little corresponding danger, being perfectly controllable, and capable of exerting its power in reverse, to retard in going down hill; it must be carelessness that would occasion the overturning of a Steam Carriage, which carries the passengers in the same Carriage with the engines. The distinct Carriage I consider to be much less controllable, in turning corners and going down hill, but yet far more so in horses. The chance of breaking down has hitherto been considerable, but it will not be more than usual in stage coaches, when the work is truly proportioned and properly executed. The risk of explosion of the boilers is the only new cause of danger, and that I consider not equivalent to the danger from the horses. There have been, for several years past, a number of locomotive engines in constant use on railways, all of them having large high pressure boilers, very much more dangerous than Mr. Gurney's or Mr. Hancock's, whether we consider the probability of explosion, or the consequences likely to follow an explosion, because being of large diameters they are less capable of sustaining the internal pressure of the steam, and also they contain a large stock of confined steam and hot water, The instances of explosion among those locomotive engines have been very rare indeed.

Have you seen Mr. Hancock's last improvement?—I consider Mr. Hancock's boiler to be much better for Steam Coaches than any other which has been proposed or tried,

If that boiler were to explode it is understood that there would be no danger at all?—It is very difficult to foresee that; at the same time the risk of explosion in Mr. Hancock's boiler is certainly very much less than is the locomotive boilers, which are in constant use on a large scale on railways, and where we have proof that the extent of the danger is very small.

Do you think his boiler might explode without the passengers knowing any thing about it?—The metal plates of which the boiler is composed will burn through by the continuance of the action of the fire, and may crack or open so as to let the steam or water out of the boiler and disable the coach from proceeding, but that is hardly to be called an explosion; no one would be hurt; the crack which lets out the hot water is sure to throw it into the fire in that case, and not on the passengers.

You consider the danger to passengers by the chance of bursting of a boiler as not equivalent to the danger of horses running away?—It is not equivalent in my opinion, the probability of a coach being overturned by the horses is far greater than that of a boiler bursting, and when either accident does occur, the probable extent of mischief from an overturn in which all the passengers must participate, is much greater than could be expected from the bursting of a boiler, which must always be kept at a considerable distance from the passengers on account of the heat.

Supposing either Mr. Hancock's or Mr. Gurney's boiler were to burst; in the one case the boiler being in a separate Carriage, and in the other, the boiler being at a considerable distance behind the passengers, what danger do you think could arise to the passengers from the bursting of the boiler?—There is very little difference between the two cases; the separate Carriage obviates any apprehension that passengers could entertain from the danger of explosion, and will therefore be preferred by most passengers, but for myself I do not rate that risk so high as to be induced to encounter the complexity of the two Carriages, and to forego some of that new security which steain power offers by its controllability in descending hills and turning corners, compared with horses; and in which circumstance, as I have before stated, I think the plan of one Carriage is much to be preferred, and probably the other objections of heat and noise and dust may be overcome by some new means, which have not yet been shown ; in Mr. Hancock's Carriage the boiler is quite behind, and away from the passengers, so that they are out of danger, if there is any, and are not materially annoyed by heat or smoke and dust, except at times when the wind brings it forwards, and that rarely happens when the Coach is moving.

Is not the danger attendant on the bursting the boiler greatly diminished by the subdivision of its internal capacity into tubes or small and flattened chambers?—Unquestionably, until the danger of explosion has become exceedingly small; but the great difficulty of boilers for Steam Coaches is, that the liability to burn through the plates has been increased by that expedient for ensuring safety, and the progress of the invention has been impeded between those two difficulties in a greater degree than from any other circumstance. It was a desideratum for a long time to contrive a boiler, which being made of such thin metal as would not render it too heavy, should have sufficient strength to retain high pressure steam without danger of bursting; also that it should expose a sufficient external surface of metal to the fire and flame and of internal surface to the contained water, to enable the required quantity of steam to be produced from such a small body of water as could be carried on account of the weight, both these conditions were fulfilled by subdividing the contained water into small tubes or into flat chambers, which expose a great surface in proportion to their internal capacity, and admit of being made strong with thin metal, but there is also another condition which is rather incompatible with the two former; viz, that there shall be such a very free communication between the interior capacities of all the tubes or narrow spaces, as will combine them all into one capacity, and permit the contained water to run from one to another, and also permit the steam, which is generated in innumerable small bubbles within the narrow spaces, to get freely away from them, to go to the engines without accumulating and collecting into such large bubbles as would occupy the spaces and displace or drive out the water before them; for if that effect takes place it produces three great evils; the water boils over into the engines along with the steam and is wasted, and the thin metal which remains exposed at the outside to the fire, becomes burning hot in an instant, after the water is so driven away from the internal surface, and the further production of steam is suspended, so long as the water continues absent. If such displacement of the water takes place frequently, and in many of the narrow spaces at once, the boiler will not produce its proper quantity of steam, and the thin metal will soon be destroyed by the fire and burned through.

Have you seen Mr. Hancock's boiler?—Yes; I have had many trials of it; and I am well acquainted with Mr. Gurneys; the former uses flat chambers of thin iron plate standing edgways upwards over the fire in parallel vertical planes; the latter uses small tubes (such as gun barrels are made of,) to contain the water, the fire being applied on the outsides of the tubes. In Mr. Gurney's boiler I think the subdivision of the water into small spaces is carried too far, because the steam cannot get freely away out of such small tubes as he uses (and they are also of great length) without displacing much of water which ought always to be contained within them. By an ingenious arrangement of connecting pipes and vessels which he called Separators, be collects all the water which is so displaced along with the steam, and returns it again into the lower ends of the same tubes, and thus avoids the evil of water boiling over into the engines; but that makes only a partial remedy for the diminished production of steam, which is attendant on the absence of the water from the heated tubes, and the still greater mischief of burning and destroying the metal. Hence the evil of burning out the tubes is very great. Also his separators hold a considerable weight of water, from which no steam is generated; and they require to be heavy in metal, to render them quite safe and strong. Mr. Hancock has taken the middle course in subdividing the water in his boiler, having all that can be required for safety, and the weight I believe, on the whole, to be less than that which will produce the same power of steam; for, owing to the freedom with which the steam can get away in bubbles from the water without carrying water with it, the surface of the heated metal is never left without water. Hence a greater effect of boiling is attained from a given surface of metal and body of contained water, and that with a much greater durability of the metal plates, than I think will ever be obtained with small tubes.

Do you think there is a danger of such an explosion as could do injury from the mode in which Mr. Hancock's boilers are constructed?—That danger I hold to be very slight; the metal of Mr. Hancock's chambers will burn through in time, the same as that of Mr. Gurney's tubes will do, but not so soon; I think, taking the thickness of metal to be the same in both cases, no injury will be done by such burning through. The flat chambers in Mr. Hancock's boiler are very judiciously combined, and are secured against bursting by causing the pressure which tends to burst each one open, to be counteracted by the corresponding pressure of the neighbouring chamber; and the outside chambers are secured by six bolts of prodigious strength, which pass through all the chambers, and unite them altogether so firmly that I see no probability of an explosion. Mr. Gurney's vessels, called Separators, are secured by hoops round them, and being of a small size, may be made very safe. Hence I think the two boilers may be put on a par as to their security; but there is a decided preference in my opinion of Mr. Hancock’s form of subdividing the water and steam compartments, which I believe is carried too far in Mr. Gurney's tubes, whereby the water included within the several tubes, cannot make way to allow the bubbles of steam to pass by it. This is owing to the great length and the small bore of the tubes; and they are so isolated one from another, that the water within them is not able to act as a common stock of water, or to keep all the interior surfaces of the metal tubes thoroughly supplied with water: thence there is a deficient production of steam and an unnecessary destruction of metal.

Are you aware that, in Mr. Hancock's Carriage, the waste steam which is discharged from the engines after having performed its office, is thrown into the fire-place, and makes its escape upwards along with the fame, smoke and heated air, and gas, which ascend from the fire to act on the boiler?—That is the way in which he gets rid of the waste steam which the engines discharge, and I understand that he there by avoids the puffing noise and appearance of steam which is common with high-pressure engines. Mr. Hancock blows the fire with a current of air, produced by a revolving fanner, which is turned rapidly round by the engines, and therefore he requires no tall chimney to produce a draft. Mr. Gurney formerly used a singular fanner to blow the fire, and also a chimney of some height; but I understand he has lately laid it aside, and adopted the plan of carrying the waste steam which has passed through the engines into the bottom of the upright chimney, and there discharging that steam through a contracted orifice in a vertical jet, which, by rising upwards with great velocity in the centre of the chimney. tube, gives a vast increase to the draft of heated air and smoke in the chimney tube, without any great height being necessary; and this plan occasions a most active current of fresh air to pass up through the fire, and urge the combustion. This is a most important improvement in locomotive Engines, which has been introduced by Mr. Stephenson into his Engines on the Liverpool and Manchester Railway, and being there combined with an improved boiler, it has been one of the great causes of the brilliant success of that undertaking. I believe 'the same plan will be indispensable to the complete success of Steam Carriages; for chimneys cannot be used high enough to obtain a draft, and blowing the fire is a very troublesome affair. I fear Mr. Stephenson's plan would occasion more noise than is allowable on common roads; but that may perhaps be avoided or diminished by some new expedient.

Do you think any danger would arise from the waste steam being discharged over a large mass of fire on Mr. Hancock's plan?—Not the least danger; all the waste steam which blows off at the safety valve, and which the engines do not require, is got rid of in the same way; but I expect Mr. Hancock does not help the combustion of the fuel by thus mixing the waste steam with the flame before it acts against the boiler. Mr. Stephenson's improvement, which Mr. Gurney has adopted, is to discharge all the waste steam into the bottom of the upright chimney with a violent vertical jet, in order to accelerate the draft up the chimney. The waste steam; therefore, is mixed with the smoke and gas, after the smoke has ceased to act on the boiler. The waste steam was very commonly discharged into the bottom of the chimney, in Trevethick's high pressure engines, many years ago, in order to mix with the smoke ascending in the chimney, and thus get rid of the waste steam; it improved the draft in that way, by rendering the smoke more buoyant, but only in a slight degree; but the waste steam was not discharged through a contracted orifice to give it velocity, nor was it directed upwards as is now done by Mr. Stephenson; and that vertical jet of steam in the centre of the chimney, gives such an intensity of draft through the fire as was never procured before, and with the further advantage that the rapidity of draft so produced, increases whenever the engines work faster, and discharge more steam, just in proportion as the demand for fire and steam increases by that working faster.

Is there any noise occasioned in that way?—Yes; but the sound is directed upwards by the chimney, and is not much heard in the locomotive Engines on the railway when they are in the open air, but when they pass under the bridges, the sound is reverberated down again by the arch, and then it sounds very loud. The noise is no great consequence there, and no particular pains have been taken to avoid it. The metal pipe of the chimney has something of the effect of an organ-pipe or trumpet, but it is probable the sound might be deadened.

Will the burning out of the plates of Mr. Hancock's boiler, that you spoke of, be attended with risk of explosion of the whole boiler, or only of the smaller divisions of the boiler?—It will be attended with no violence which could be called an explosion, nor with any danger whatever, but only with the inconvenience of disabling the Carriage until the ruptured chamber is replaced by another. The rupture or crack of the metal plate at the burned place, would let out the water and steam very gradually into the fire, and probably extinguish it. All steam boilers burn out in that manner sooner or later. The different chambers of Mr. Hancock's boiler are kept together by six very strong bolts, which pass through them all, and which are quite protected from the action of the fire; to burst the boiler those bolts must give way altogether, and there is no adequate force to produce any such effect.

Are you acquainted with the construction of the new Steam Carriage which started this week from Gloucester to Cheltenham?—I am not, further than that it is on Mr. Gurney's plan.

Apprehension has been felt that these Steam Coaches will be found to give great annoyance to travellers passing them on the public roads, from smoke and the peculiar noise from letting off the steam; do you apprehend such results will take place?—I do not anticipate any great annoyance will result to travellers in other carriages; I have passed Mr. Hancock's on the road several times and Mr. Gurney's also, and have travelled in them often; horses take a little notice of them when in motion, but not much, and very soon become accustomed to them. I once met Mr. Hancock going very quick along the New Road, and drew up to see him pass; I had no difficulty whatever in making my pony stand, though rather a spirited one. Mr. Hancock did not observe me, and as I wished to go with him I turned and drove after him, and after a race to overtake him, I had no difficulty in drawing alongside of his Steam Carriage for a good way in order to speak to him and get him to stop for me. The emission of hot air was very sensible, when following close along side of the boiler, at the hinder end of the Carriage, but I did not observe any puffing of steam.

Do you think that whatever annoyance exists in the present Steam Coaches may be removed by the improvement of the Carriage, and particularly the appearance of the Carriage?—Certainly their appearance may be improved; they are most unsightly now. The general question of further improvements in Steam Coaches depends upon the general mechanical skill and judgment of the mechanicians, who turn their attention to the subject, and the peculiar experience they acquire in this particular branch of mechanics, by continually practising and exercising with Steam Carriages, on roads of all kinds, in all weathers, to find out their defects, and how to remedy them; and what is the best mode of management also by building new and better Carriages as soon as they have learned what will be better than the present ones. But all this must be at a great pecuniary loss, and some further encouragement must be held out in order to induce the more skilful mechanicians to embark in such a pursuit; for at present it is by no means an object of attention to our best and most competent engineers, because they know they would only throw away their money and time by undertaking Steam Coaches, even if they were to succeed ever so completely. The Patentees are a different class of men; they are the inventors, who have first organized and arranged the combination of machinery which is to be used; and, according to law, they have acquired a legal property in those peculiar combinations which they have discovered, that has been their encouragement and stimulus to exertion; but the terms of their patent rights will be very likely to expire before their inventions come into use to such an extent as will repay them their previous costs with any profit thereon; and also, with the present defective state of the law on the subject of patents, they will be unusually lucky if they are able to make good their patents at law, in case their rights are contested. The Patentees are not experienced mechanicians or engineers, and have had to learn the business of engine-making and of coach-making as they went on; and a great deal of the deficiency of the present Steam Coaches has arisen from the circumstance, that they have been made by persons who were not at that time qualified to execute either a common coach or a common Steam Engine; but they have acquired more skill now, and we may expect more finished productions from them in future. There is no mechanician, of the class of those who will be ultimately employed to make the engines and machinery of Steam Coaches when they do come into use (and who alone can give that perfection of design, proportion and execution, which is essential to their coming into use), who will have any thing to do with them now; not so much from any doubts that they would not be able to succeed in perfecting them, as wee from a conviction that the expence of attaining success would be greater than would be repaid by any advantage they could afterwards derive from making such machines, in open competition with every other mechanician who chose to copy after their model when perfected; for that perfection of design, proportion and execution in which Steam Coaches are now wanting, though very laborious and expensive of attainment, would not be grounds for exclusive privileges under the existing law of patents. The patents to the first inventors are the only ones which are professed to be recognized by law, though in effect they can scarcely ever be maintained at law. That is a very important point for the consideration of the Committee, and one which deserves great attention. As the law, of property in inventions now stands, when a new invention is advanced to such a stage that it may be considered to be tolerably perfect as an invention, no further exclusive privilege can be maintained to compensate for the skill, labour and expence which must be incurred to find out true proportions, dimensions, weights and strength which are essential to bring it to bear as a practical business. The law professes to give the whole to the first inventor, although he may have only laid the foundation on which another has raised the superstructure; and if, as usually happens, the claim of the first inventor is set aside, from technical informality in his title-deeds, and also when his term expires, the whole superstructure lapses to the public. For these reasons, those who are the most competent to the task of giving the finishing touches of practical utility to great inventions, are kept back by being aware that they shall not be repaid. Under such circumstances, a defect of judgment would be proved @ priori against any one who might commence such an unpromising pursuit, and that want of judgment which could permit a man to overlook the pecuniary considerations, would not be favourable to his success as a mechanician, in giving that precision of form and dimensions, and that practical utility, to an invention which requires an exercise of the cool judgment resulting from experience; rather than of the genius depending upon original thought.

You do not consider the inconveniences of the present Steam Coaches to be inseparable from the invention?—Certainly not; but I do not think that any of the individuals at.present engaged in the pursuit are the mast competent persons who could be chosen to overcome the remaining difficulties, being inventors, who have almost completed their parts of the task, and not experienced practical engineers, into whose bands the affair of building the next Steam Coacher ought now to pass, under the general direction and advice of those inventors; if the building of Steam Coaches: is continued in their hands, they will only advance towards. perfection of proportion and execution by slow degrees, as the Patentees acquire that general skill as engineers and mechanists which is already possessed by professional engineers,

You think that the machinery may be improved by better mechanists?—I have not the least doubt of it; and yet those mechanists are not the proper men of genius to have invented what has been hitherto done by the Patentees.

Apprehensions have been felt by trustees and surveyors.of roads that Steam Carriages are more injurious to the roads. than. Carriages of equal weights drawn by horses; what is your opinion upon that point?—I should not apprehend that the present. Coaches are injurious in a greater degree than other Carriages of equal weights; and when Steam Coaches are really brought to bear. I think they will be much less.so than any Carriage at present in use, taking horses and the Carriage they draw against Engines and the Carriage they impel, at weight for weight.—All my observation upon Steam Carriages has led me to believe that they do no particular harm to the road; I could never perceive any peculiar marks that they left in their tracks, and an examination of the iron tire on the edges of the wheels of Mr. Hancock's Carriage shows evidently that no slipping takes place in the surface of the road; and that fact is proved to a certainty by other observations on the working of that Carriage. It will be a long time before a sufficient number of Steam Carriages travel over any road to bring their effect on the materials to the test of experience; but on general principles I have no hesitation whatever in stating my opinion, that they never will answer as long as they do injure the roads any more than the fair wear occasioned by the wheels of other Carriages of the same weight; for any injury they might do to the road must be by a slipping of their wheels on the road, which would be a waste of the power of their Engines, and hitherto they have had no power to spare; or, if their wheels are too narrow, and they cut deep into the road, the power of the Engines will be wasted. If they are to be efficiently advanced, the whole power must be fairly exerted in advancing them forwards along the road, without turning their wheels in vain on the road, or cutting ruts in the road. I am confident that, if the wheels slip at all on the roads so as to lose motion, or if they penetrate so as to make ruts, those Coaches will not answer, and the defects must be remedied, or the Coaches must be given up. I do not mean to affirm whether the present Steam Coaches which draw other Carriages after them do or do not slip on the road, because I have not examined them; but I am of opinion that for the ultimate successful application of steam power, the Carriages must be so constructed that they will do less injury to the roads than Carriages drawn by horses; and whenever Steam Coaches become common, I think the roads will be most materially benefited by the change.

Supposing the total weight of a stage or mail coach, drawn by four horses at ten miles an hour, to be two tons, and the weight of the four horses to be two tons, what proportion of the wear of a Macadam road would you expect to be occasioned by the wheels of the coach, supposing them to be the usual breadth of stage coach wheels, and what would be the wear by the horses' feet ?-It is impossible to fix an accurate proportion for such a question as that; but I have no doubt but that, weight for weight, horses' feet do far more injury to a road than the wheels of a carriage, and particularly so at quick speeds, because wheels have a rolling action on the materials of the road, tending to consolidate, and the horses' feet have a scraping and digging action, tending to tear up the materials. One test of the wear by horses' feet will be in the wear of towing-paths for canals, and the railway roads where horses are employed'; in either of those cases, the number of horses which pass along is so small, that no turnpike roads afford any example of comparison, and yet the wear of towing and railway paths is found to be considerable. The rapid wear of horses' shoes is another test.

It has been stated by a previous witness, that the proportion of the wear of a Macadam road, under such circumstances, would be about two-thirds by the horses, and one-third by the carriage; should you think that a fair approximation to the truth?—I have no means of judging with such precision, but I have no doubt whatever that, in the case above supposed, the wear by the horses' feet would be much greater than the wear by the wheels; for independently of the difference of the action, as before stated, the rapidity of the blows wherewith the horses strike down their feet, in stepping quickly, wears the road, and they keep their feet pressing on the same spot for a sensible time afterwards, which must have a far greater effect on the materials, to wear and loosen them, than the comparatively progressive rolling of the wheels over the road, because the latter remain only an imperceptibly short space of time on the same spot, and have a consolidating action.

May you take the wear of horses' shoes, in proportion to that of the tire of the wheels, as a fair test of the proportionate wear of the road by each?—No, by no means, because the pressure which the wheels exert, and which wears away the tire, is, under certain conditions, very beneficial to the road; whereas the pressure occasioned by the horses' feet is in all cases pernicious. On a gravelled road, which is not yet consolidated, the rolling action which causes the wear of the tire of wheels produces a great improvements of the road, when the treading action, which causes an equal wear of horses' shoes, does nothing but mischief. The harder and more solid the road becomes, the less this may be apparent, because the wear of the road becomes so imperceptible; nevertheless, I think the proportion of legs wear by wheels than by horses' shoes, will still hold true.

What is the average width of the tire of the wheels of Steam Carriages you have tried?—Mr. Hancock's wheels are two inches and three inches broad; in Mr. Gurney's Carriage, when he carried the bound along with the engines, the wheels were two inches and a half broad; but I understand be has widened them since he has altered his system of drawing a separate Carriage, which is to be expected as a necessary consequence of the alteration.

Do you think the machine would act with less advantage if the wheels were wider?—That depends entirely upon the weight resting upon the wheels, and the sort of roads they are to run upon. I think it would be better for those individual Carriages to use broader wheels than they had.

If the tire of Mr. Hancock's were six inches broad, would it be an advantage or a disadvantage?—I think six inches would be too wide for that description of Carriage; about four inches I should think a suitable width for his wheels. Mr. Hancock's Carriage is so arranged, that a greater proportion of the whole weight of the Carriage is thrown upon the Winder wheels, to one or both of which the power of the engines is applied, than upon the fore wheels: that I think is very judicious, because it ensures such an effectual adhesion of the hind wheels to the road that no slipping can take place. The breadth of the wheels must be 80 proportioned to the pressure that they exert on the road, that they will not indent or press in, to leave deep marks behind them. The actual breadth that will be suitable to any given weight will depend upon the hardness of the materials of which the road is made, and roads differ very much in that respect: I think that in all cases the breadth of wheels which will enable the Carriage to make the best progress, will be that which will do the least injury to the road, for it will be that which will occasion no disturbance of the stones after they have been consolidated, but let, will only wear away their upper surfaces, and the iron of the tire.

You have stated that you think the bringing of these machines to perfection is retarded, because there is not a sufficient prospect of encouragement, and that Steam Coaches are therefore confined to the hands of persons who have not the same skill in practical mechanics as others, who would undertake the subject if adequate encouragement were offered; can you point out any mode by which that encouragement could be given?—Nothing could do it:o effectually as offering a handsome Parliamentary reward for the attainment of some specified performance, such as keeping a Steam Coach for passengers regularly plying on some suitable road for two years, during which it should not have failed to arrive by steam more than some specified number of times, and within a certain number of hours of lost time from the time-bill of the Mail on the same road. Suppose this were done between London and Bristol, for a reward of 10,0001. it would cost the public nothing if it were not accomplished, and the establishment of that one Coach to carry the Mail would be worth the money to the public whenever it was accomplished; or between London and Holyhead would be still more important, but that would require 20,000l, reward. Another plan of more immediate application would be to offer a bounty of a fair price per mile for carrying despatches by steam (as I suggested before) whenever they arrived in a specified time; the price should be sufficient to pay expences. That would. I think, be the best course, because I believe it would be undertaken at once by individuals, provided that no stipulations were made either for or against carrying passengers or goods; they would be sure to carry passengers and goods as soon as they could, for their own profit; and it might be stipulated, that after any coach had earned a certain sum in bounty, it should not be entitled to more. The effect of such public rewards has been very striking in the case of the invention of means of ascertaining the Longitude at sea. Another way would be, instead of money, to give exclusive privileges for a term to any persons who should first succeed in establishing Steam Coaches on specified roads, under specified conditions of performance; or a Society offering a premium, as was done in the case of Steam Navigation to India, would have a good effect; as was also shown in the case of the locomotive Steam Carriages on the railway between Liverpool and Manchester. There a most inadequate premium (only 500l.) brought the invention forward more than ten following years of desultory and unencouraged attempts would have done.

You think those means would produce a great effect?—have no doubt of it; an important result may often be within a moderate sum of attainment, and yet a prudent man will not set about it. It will be certain to cost 1,000l. and a year's hard labour of an engineer, whose time is worth 3001, more, to make a new Steam Carriage in a proper manner, and bring it to bear as a business, supposing that its performance turns out as near to previous calculation, according to the experimental Coaches now in existence as can be expected, and that no radical alterations require to be afterwards made in it. After succeeding in the attempt, be must expect to make copies of it on the same terms as other makers, who would examine one of the first Coaches he sends out, and copy it with very little trouble. The operation of competent mechanicians in making first machines of new invention, and bringing them to perfection in all their details, are necessarily more expensive than those of first inventors, who execute their experimental machines in a slovenly manner with cheap workmanship only as experiments; but when those experiments have been gone through, an extreme soundness and accuracy of workmanship is the only chance of attaining success in the machines which are sent out for real business. For went of experience to direct the mechanician as to the right form, dimensions and weight of each piece of his machine, it often happens that after having made a piece of expensive work, it will prove too slight or too heavy when set to work, and he may have to make it over again as expensively. The copyists, who will afterwards come into competition with him when his machine is brought to bear, will have no such difficulties.

You conceive that a grant of public money as a premium would call forth the necessary degree of skill?—I have no doubt of it; we have had very few instances of invention being stimulated by the offer of public reward; but the instances of ascertaining the Longitude is a most brilliant example. The facility and accuracy with which the Longitude is now determined at sea, is the result of one of the greatest efforts of human genius and perseverance. The stimulus of reward has occasioned both modes of it to be perfected; viz. by astronomical observations and by time-keepers; we should very soon have Steam Carriages brought into full use if such a reward were offered.

Have you ever ascertained the duty or performance of work done in respect to the fuel consumed by locomotive Engines?—They vary so greatly, that it is difficult to make a statement. The common locomotive Engines which have been used for several years to draw coal-waggons on railways, have remained without material improvement for a long time, and their performance is very low, being only equal to raising about four millions pounds weight one foot high by the consumption of a bushel of coals, their boilers evaporating about four cubic feet and a half of water into steam with each bushel of coals. Such Engines exert six to eight horse power. Mr. Stephenson's new quick-going Engines on the Liverpool and Manchester Rail-way are more improved in duty, and are in a progressive course of improvement; but as they burn coke instead of coal, the established mode of computation is inapplicable. Mr. Stephenson's small Engine, called The Rocket, which gained the prize of 500l. offered by The Liverpool and Manchester Rail-way Company, and which was the model for succeeding Engines, exerted abou six horse power during that trial, and burned about 177 lbs. of cake per hour, which is at the rate of about five millions and a half pounds weight, raised one foot high by the consumption of 84 lbs. of coal? but they have greatly reduced the consumption of fuel in the succeeding Engines on that Railway, owing to inclosing the cylinders of the Engines within the lower part of the chimney, were they are kept very hot, and an increased effect has been given to the fire by: blowing the waste stream: upwards through the chimney, as stated before. In the Rocket they were just beginning to be aware of the value of that expedient for animating the fire, and it was done in a degree, but it has been since done more completely.

Do you know how near any part of the Railroad between Manchester and Liverpool runs to the common road?—I cannot say; in passing along the Rail-way, I do not recollect seeing the turnpike road, except crowing it.several times.

The noise made by the Engines used on the Rail-way is much greater than by the Steam Coaches, is it not?—Yes, Mr. Hancock's Coach makes less noise than any of Mr. Stephenson's Engines; but the power exerted by the latter_is much greater than by Mr. Hancock's Engines. The quick-travelling Carriages on the Manchester and Liverpool Railway, when drawn by the last improved Engines, are extremely easy in their motion.

Is it your opinion, that a road would suffer less injury, from the fore and hind wheels of a Steam Carriage following each other, in the same tracks on the road, than if they run on different tracks?—That depends upon what kind of action the wheels exert on the road; if they cut it up and disturb the materials, by pressing down some stones, so deep as to displace other stones sideways, and cause them to rise up at the sides of the track, then it is best not to allow such wheels to cut the road twice in the same places, but if the fore wheels roll the road smooth on the surface, and consolidate, without disturbing the materials; that is, if they only press down the stones over which they pass, as much as will produce a close contact, but not so much as to displace the neighbouring stones laterally, then I think the hinder wheels should follow in the tracks of the fore wheels; certainly that is best for the Carriage; and I believe it will be found that it makes but little difference to a good hard road whether the four wheels of a Carriage follow in the same track or not, provided that the wheels are not loaded so as to indent deep into the solid materials of the road. All Carriages ought to have their wheels of such a breadth that they will not leave any material indentations in the road; they should rather consolidate the materials than break them up. If the fore wheels are only so much loaded, in proportion to their breadth and to the hardness of the road materials, that they will consolidate the materials over which they have passed, then I think it is quite as well for the road and much easier for the Carriage, that the hind wheels should follow in the tracks of the fore wheels: the loading of the Carriage may be so arranged that the principal weight will be borne on the hind wheels, and the fore wheels may (by a suitable apportionment of breadth) be qualified to consolidate the road in their tracks, and thus prepare the way for the passage of the hind wheels, with the least wear of the road and the greatest ease to the Carriage. It is quite as much the interest of the proprietors of Carriages, as of the Road Trusts, that the roads should not be cut up by too narrow wheels, for it is always at the expence of horse-labour that the road is thus injured, independently of the evil of having a worse road to travel over the next time. If the wheels are too narrow for the load upon them, and the road materials soft, so that the wheels do print tracks in the road, that evil will be greater, if the hind wheels follow the fore wheels than if they run in new paths; but it is better to remove the evil, by using broader wheels or less load, or harder road materials, and to run the wheels in the same tracks; because the résistance to a Carriage is, in all cases, increased by running the wheels in different tracks, and that with little or no benefit to the road; particularly when the road is covered with mud and wet dirt or snow. The above observations apply to all four-wheeled Carriages, whether they are drawn by horses or impelled by steam; but in common Carriages, the horses' feet tend to dig up the road; I think the Steam Carriages will, when perfected, be free from that objection, and that they have a greater claim to be allowed to run their wheels in the same tracks than other Carriages.

Were you ever in Mr. Hancock's Carriage, when travelling?-Yes; I have ridden on it; but he has put in larger cylinders since I went with him the last time, and I understand makes better progress now. I have examined all his present machinery in detail,and think it very judiciously planned.

Did you find that it frightened horses, or annoyed passengers?-I have stated before, that I found horses were not frightened; but every one must judge for himself, of the degree of annoyance he experiences. Persons who are accustomed to travel in luxurious, private Carriages, would find many annoyances in a common Stage Coach, which others would consider as excellent travelling. I am so accustomed to machinery, and to Stage Coach travelling and to Steam Boats, that I am not liable to be annoyed thereby; and I found riding in Mr. Hancock's Carriage to be exceedingly like travelling in a Stage Coach. I heard no complaints by passengers. I believe he has never found any difficulty in getting passengers, since he has run for hire. Persons are reported to be annoyed by the smell of hot grease, in the Steam Coaches on the Cheltenham Road; I can only say, that I never observed such a smell in Mr. Hancock's Carriage. If there are any real annoyances to the passengers in particular Steam Coaches, they will work their own cure in a short time, either by the proprietors finding out remedies, or else giving up their Coaches, as they must do if they are not rendered agreeable to the passengers. The only question that deserves attention is, whether there is any danger to passengers, or any serious annoyance to other persons not passengers.

Did you observe any horses or Carriages passing his Carriage?—Yes. I have always passed through crowds of horses and Carriages with all the Steam Coaches I have tried; there is so much curiosity excited by the novelty of a Steam Coach in motion, that all the horses on the road are drawn up to get a sight of it, and many are turned to follow after it; I have observed that some horses take very little notice of the Steam Coach; others are a little startled, but I never saw any difficulty which the reins could not control with the greatest ease; horses are easily alarmed at any thing unusual, but they very soon become accustomed to any thing, as is shown by the readiness with which horses can be brought to endure discharges of firearms and of artillery. A patent was taken out some years ago for what was called a Travelling Advertizer;, it was a small four-wheeled Carriage, supporting an enormous octagonal tower, which was stuck all over the outside with printed bills for advertizements; it was drawn very slowly through the streets by one horse, and had a most unusual appearance: this machine was indicted as a nuisance because it frightened horses.

Have you never observed horses to shy at a Stage Coach when heavily laden?—I have observed horses to be alarmed at the enormous bulk which some of the vans carry at times at a great height above ground; horses are the most timid animals to encounter every thing that they are not accustomed to, and the most courageous animals to encounter every thing that they are accustomed to, even when really terrific, such as discharges of fire arms.

Had you occasion to turn any sharp corners when in Mr. Hancock's Carriage?—Yes, many; the yard of his premises is exceedingly narrow and inconvenient to turn into and out from, but it is done with ease by the Steam Coach; but the same place would not do at all for a coach and four horses to put up at.

Going at what speed can you turn round a sharp corner without any danger?-I do not remember turning with any considerable speed, nor should it ever be attempted with any Carriage if it can be avoided, and there can be no pretence or necessity for going quick when tanning a Steam Coach, as its power is quite controllable, in which respect it has a great advantage over a common Carriage; for four! horses at the moment of turning, are very little, under: the control of the reins, particularly the leaders, and, it depends upon their good will.whether they choose to go slow or go quick when turning. In a Steam: Carriage the conductor has such a perfect, control of the power, that he can never fail in, checking the speed at the moment of turning. I observed that Mr. Han, cock's Carriage is steered with the greatest ease and will turn round in a very short space: I have seen him turn round in the New Road to return without backing the Carriage at all, although he was in the middle of the road when he began to turn.

If you had turned a sharp corner, could you have stopped immediately on meeting a Carriage?—Yes; the power of stoppage is most remarkable; that is one of the great advantages of a Steam Coach. I have steered Mr. Hancock's Carriage myself, and found it to be most completely under control.

The Carriage may be turned in the smallest space that the wheels will permit it to go round.in?—Yes, in a much smaller space than a Carriage with horses can turn, because it is so much shorter in the total length, and the power being completely under control, there is no danger in turning quite short; whereas no prudent driver will turn a four-horse coach round in a road, without the guard getting down and holding the leaders' heads; for they are not sufficiently under the control of the reins in turning to do it with safety.

Did you ever see a Steam Carriage going down a hill?—Yes, down the hill of the New Road at Islington; and it was done with more safety than with any Carriage with four horses; but I do not contemplate the descent of Steam Coaches down very steep hills, for that supposes their getting up such hills, which is not likely to be accomplished soon, and the present Coaches seem to me to be only fit for our most improved lines of roads, where all very steep hills have been reduced to moderate slopes.

Have you turned your attention particularly to the subject of going up steep hills, and what ascent do you think can be surmounted?—In forming my opinion of the probability that Steam Carriages will be brought to bear, I could not overlook the circumstance that they would have to go up and down hills; but most of our great lines of roads are now so improved, that what were formerly called steep hills are not very numerous or frequent; but wherever they do occur, I propose to give the Steam Coach the assistance of a pair of post-horses in aid of its own power. In going down hill, Steam Coaches are very safe, because the whole power can be effectually exerted to retard or resist the turning of the wheels.

Mr. Gurney's Steam Coach has gone up Highgate Hill without horses?—Yes, but I understood that it was broken to pieces in coming down again. My objection to attempting to make a Steam Coach go up a steep hill, in the present state of our knowledge, is, that it requires to have a great strength, and consequent weight of machinery to have a sufficient power to do so with safety, and which weight is a useless incumbrance and impediment to progression at all other times. The question is, whether all the machinery of a Steam Carriage should be made twice as strong and heavy as is necessary for impelling it with safety on a tolerable level road, merely that it may have power within itself for going up a few occasional bills, or whether it is better to make the machinery lighter, and take the occasional assistance of a pair of post horses. There can be no objection to the latter expedient, except the expence of such horses; and as the Steam Coach can carry goods to profit in place of all the weight of machinery which is saved by making it lighter, 1 think that the aid of post-horses would be an economy. In forming such an opinion, I follow a maxim which I have always found to hold true; viz. that Steam power is certain to be more profitable than horses, if the work is to be kept constantly going on, because then the great advantage of Steam power, that it does not tire, becomes fully available, and to perform the same service by horses a very great number must be kept for change; but for business which require only occasional working, or for working during only as many hours each day as horses can do without changing. Steam power loses its great advantage over horses, and in some cases they will do the work cheaper. One great item of the expence of Steam power is the first cost of machinery and engineers' wages, both which would be only the same for working twelve hours per day as for one hour and a half, which is the utmost that a Stage Coach horse can draw at ten miles an hour.—A Steam Coach should work twelve or fourteen hours in every twenty-four hours, to gain the full advantage of the system of Steam power over horse labour; the intervening ten or twelve hours will allow ample time for putting every thing in perfect order for the next journey, if the machinery is what it ought to be; and there should be a spare Coach for every two which are running, to allow time for more considerable repairs; hence I reckon that three Steam Coaches should keep up a double passage of 100 or 120 miles a day continually. Expensive machinery, which is only to be worked occasionally, will not in some cases do work so cheap as it can be done by men or by horses without machinery; and that I conceive to be the case with the extra cost, weight, strength and complication which must be given to the machinery of a Steam Coach, in order to enable it to go safely up steep hills without assistance. I apply these remarks to the present Steam Coaches, but future improvements may in time produce that species of machinery which will effect the going up hill with less difficulty than the present. It has been supposed that the diameters of the cylinders being larger than is necessary for going on level ground, they could be worked with a diminished strength of Steam to go on level ground, and stronger steam when going up bill. To get up ordinary and moderate hills, that is certainly the right plan; but it requires the strength of all the moving parts of the Engines to be made sufficient to bear the utmost force that the pistons can exert when impelled by the strongest Steam that is ever to be used; also, the large wheels which run upon the road should be made very broad on the edges, and of proportionate strength. The present Coaches have been faulty in these respects, and yet the machinery is too heavy. Another way of getting sufficient power to go up hill, is to have the pistons only a suitable size for going along the ordinary, road, and to introduce wheel-work, which can be thrown into action when a hill is to be ascended, and which will turn the wheels of the Carriage round only once for three turns of the cranks of the Engine, and consequently with a triple force. Mr. Hancock has shown me the parts of such machinery which he is now making for a new Steam Coach, with wheel-work and endless chains, on a plan which I think very likely to answer for ascending moderate hills; but for very steep hills I think it is desirable to have a help by post-horses. The immediate desideratum is, to construct a Steam Coach with the power and strength necessary to go quickly and safely along the best lines of road which can be found, without any steep hills upon them, and taking assistance of post-horses where it is necessary. If that is accomplished, and such a Coach is worked continually for two or three years, it would probably lead to the knowledge of the proper kind of machinery to go up steeper hills; but if the adoption of Steam Coaches is to wait until they are rendered much more perfect, it will be a very long time, because practice is essential to finding out a proper plan.

Do you think there is any danger in going down a hill in a Steam Carriage?—Much less than in a common Stage Coach; for by backing the Engines, so that their power is brought to act in opposition to the turning round of the wheels, and with the assistance of drags or brakes, rub on the rims of the wheels, and aid in retarding their motion by friction. Steam Coaches will safely go down all moderate bills, such as are met with on our best lines of turnpike roads, say between London and Holyhead'; and with machinery such as Mr. Hancock is now making, if it is suitably proportioned. I expect a Steam Coach would not require assistance to get up hill at more than five or six places between London and Holyhead.

Stanmore and Highgate Hill you call moderate hills?—Not the old Highgate Hill; but the Archway is a very fair road, on which a Steam Coach should (not feel the least difficulty. I do not call those moderate bills which are common on the roads in many parts of Devonshire and Cornwall; it will be a long time before Steam Coaches will be able to travel there; and the goodness of the roads is to be considered as well as the slope. No Steam Coach that I have seen, possesses that strength and weight of machinery: which, being on the present construction, will enable it to get up even a moderate hill without risk of breaking; for though it may climb up the hill by accumulating the strength of the Steam, the parts have not been made strong enough to resist the strain to which they are then subjected, if they were frequently used, and if the work were made, on the present plan, strong enough to endure the extra strain of getting up a steep hill with safety, there would be too much weight of machinery for travelling on the ordinary road.

Can they ascend a hill so steep as one in eighteen?—That I think is too much for them, without the aid of horses, unless the surface of the road were of the very best quality; but such hills are usually bad roads.

Are they competent to ascend such a hill as St. James's-street?—I have not a very particular recollection of the slope of that hill, but I believe it is paved, and I think that it would be about their maximum; for a great deal would depend upon the surface of the road; they would go up all the length of Regent-street, which is. I expect, almost as steep as St. James's, but it is a better surface; and I think they should go up any good road not exceeding a rise of one in thirty; and if more inclined, or if the road is bad, they should be allowed one or two horses. I doubt if they could ascend the Pentonville hill in its present shameful state of neglect; but if it is made good, then I think they might.

Have you turned your attention to the subject of apportioning the Toils on Steam Carriages, so that they may bear their due proportion to the Tolls on Carriages drawn by horses?—No. I have not paid much attention thereto; it is a subject which would require more consideration and more data than I have before me. I am convinced that if a Steam Coach, complete when travelling, weighs no more on an average than a Stage Coach with its four horses complete weighs on an average, there is no reason for charging any extra toll for Steam Coaches, but on the contrary. I believe it will turn out in the sequel that they ought to go for less toll, because they will wear the roads less than the present Coaches whenever they are made really efficient; and in the mean time, until that is accomplished. I think it may be safely left to the chance of events as to injuring the roads to any extent whatever, by injudicious attempts to work Steam Coaches of an injurious construction, on the consideration that if any new Coach which may be started, does injure the road, it will be very soon given up from its own demerits, probably before it has produced any visible effect on the road. Suppose its wheels were to slip so much as to plough out ruts on the road, it would most likely stick fast, or be broken to pieces in the first journey along the road, and such abortive attempts will not be repeated very frequently. It is idle to talk of one or two Steam Carriages doing much visible injury to a frequented road in a year or two, even if they run constantly, for suppose that it wears the road four or five times as much as one Carriage of the same weight drawn by horses (including those horses in the weight) it would only be equivalent to four or five additional Coaches passing each day, and that on the road from London to Birmingham, for instance, would be quite imperceptible. I am confident that any Steam Coach which does a road any greater damage than equivalent to Carriages drawn by horses, will fail of itself in a short time, and prove an unsuccessful project. I should strongly recommend the new system to be left to its own chance of success or failure, as far as the roads and the safety of passengers are concerned; and I think the same reasoning applies against any regulation for the breadth of the wheels for Steam Carriages, because they will not perform well if their wheels are so nar10 August, row as to cut the road materially. I understand that the old system of regulations and penalties, as to over weights on given breadths of wheels for common Carriages, has been done away with on the roads in an extensive district round London, and I think that is good policy, from the circumstance that the proportion regulates itself by the interest of the owners of Carriages, when the fact is understood that Carriage wheels, which are too narrow in proportion to the load on them, and to the hardness and goodness of the road, will always draw heavier than wheels of a suitable breadth; and that though the carriers may not find out the proper breadth at once, they will do so in the end. The old Acts for forcing the use of very broad wheels by making tolls operate as penal ties and premium, was a most injudicious system of legislation, and did nothing but harm; the carriers soon found out how to evade the intention of the Act, by using very broad conical or barrelled wheels, rounding on the edges, which conformed to the words of the law, but which acted on the road like narrow wheels. The broad wheels intended to have been encouraged by the old Act of Parliament, were expected to act as rollers to make and improve the roads, and were encouraged to carry excessive loads for that object; but if the wheels of the broad wheeled waggons actually used had been really such as the Legislature contemplated, they could not have been continued in use on account of the great increase of draft; but the broad wheels actually used, carried such loads, that they crushed they road materials to powder, owing to the conical form of the wheels and the bending of the axletrees; they bore on the road almost wholly at the inner edges of the iron tires, and not across all their breadth, as was intended. The advantage to the carriers in tolls and in increased loads, induced them to use such broad wheels, when it would have been against their interests to have done so, if they had paid the same tolls for the weight of goods as other carriers, and their operation on the road was more injurious than any other Carriages. There is no particular breadth of wheels which can be prescribed as the best to carry given loads over all sorts of roads, for much depends upon the hardness of the road materials, the size to which the pieces are broken, their general form and disposition to consolidate into a hard bed, the resistance the materials offer to wet and frost, and to wearing by the wheels, the breadth of the wheels, and the load upon them, should be adapted to all the combinations of circumstances, and the carrier will soon find, if his wheels are not best adapted to the road, by the draft being greater than it ought to be. As to Steam Coaches, the wear which will take place on roads, from all that can, by any probability, be expected to be brought into use for some years, will be so small that it cannot be felt for a considerable period, and when it is felt it will be time to look round and see what is the real effect on the roads of those particular Coaches which are in use, and apportion the tolls that they ought to pay.

Is it your opinion that weight for weight, including the weight of horses on one hand, and of Engines and an average of the water and fuel on the other, the tolls should be the same on Steam Carriages as on horse-drawn Carriages?—I think that if it were so it would prove a considerable advantage to the roads, because, as I have stated before. I think the roads will be considerably benefited by the change of impelling by steam instead of by horses. I think it will be a great public benefit when Steam Coaches come into common use, and hence that it is expedient that a moderate bounty should be offered for the adoption of Steam Carriages, by giving them all possible advantage they can have without trenching on the interests of individuals; and if they were allowed to run toll free and duty free, until a certain number were in use, or during a certain time, it would much accelerate their introduction, because it would diminish the loss that must necessarily be incurred by running them before they are perfected in their construction; small encouragements or discouragements have a considerable effect on new inventions in their infant and imperfect state. The advantage to the public from Steam Navigation is now generally acknowledged; but when Steam Boats were in their infancy an attempt was made by the watermen on the Thames to suppress them, by contending that, according to their charter, and the usage of the City of London, no persons could be allowed to own a vessel plying for passengers on the Thames, nor to work on board of such a vessel except they were freemen of the city, and belonging to the watermens' chest. This would have effectually prevented any engine men being employed, and in addition the watermen engaged all their members to refuse to navigate them. After a long dispute and delay of the Steam Boats, it was decided that one out of a number of owners being free was sufficient, and that the men employed to manage the Engines were not subject to the watermen's regulations of freedom of the river; some watermen were induced, by giving them small shares in lieu of wages, to exercise their right of freedom in favour of the real owners, and to navigate the vessel. It was afterwards attempted to get the measurement and calculation for the registered tonnage of the Steam Vessels made according to the extreme breadth across the projecting boxes which contain paddle wheels, under the pretext that they occupied that width in the river and in harbours, instead of measuring the breadth of the vessel at the surface of the water. If that could have been enforced it would have nearly doubled all the rates on Steam Vessels compared with other vessels; but the subject being brought before Parliament, an Act was passed to give them the advantage of deducting as much from the length of the vessel as is occupied by Engines and Machinery in calculating the registered tonnage. This was in effect a small bounty upon Steam Vessels, for they have no claim to such an advantage over sailing vessels, when the weight of masts, sails and rigging, in the latter is not deducted in calculating their tonnage. The effect of that measure has been favourable to the advancement of Steam Navigation, for though it was but a very trifling bounty, and is now of no consequence, it came as a well-timed aid, at the date when that Act passed, because almost all Steam Vessels were then navigated at a loss, they were so imperfect (like Steam Coaches at the present day,) that their Engines were continually getting out of order, whereby they failed to make their passages, and required expensive reparations, their consumption of fuel was great, and the wear of boiler excessive; on the other hand, few passengers would go by them at first, and some terrible accidents which happened in a few vessels caused them all to be avoided by passengers for a long time; it was only by persisting in keeping them going as well as they could, and thereby gaining experience in their management, that the numerous defects of their construction were remedied; most of the earliest Steam Boats had two or three successive editions of engines and machinery before they were rendered so perfect as to become profitable; and in addition to the expences of such alterations and improvements in the machinery, they were obliged to make their passages regularly for some time after they were rendered tolerably effective before they acquired sufficient confidence with the public as to their safety and punctuality, to enable them to obtain as many passengers as would pay the expences of navigating the vessels. For all these reasons, any increase of their expences was severely felt, at that losing period; many were abandoned, and the difference in the expences occasioned by the rates to which vessels are liable, being calculated according to the breadth across the paddle wheels, or according to the Act passed for measuring them short by all the space taken up by the Engines, would have occasioned others which have been brought to bear to have been given up, before they had attained so much perfection as to enable them to earn their expences. In the same manner the tolls levied upon Steam Coaches at present are to be regarded, not as payments out of the profits of a gainful trade, but as an increase of loss upon that which is yet, and which must inevitably continue to be for some time, a losing business. The ultimate success to which I look forward is entirely dependent on the circumstance of the first speculators in Steam Coaches being enabled to go through a sufficient term of inefficient performance, and consequent loss, to acquire experience in the new business, and that experience will, no doubt, lead to expensive alterations and reconstructions of their machinery. There is so much mechanical talent to be had for money, that I have no doubt of the final accomplishment, if the attempts now making are continued long enough; because I am confident that there is (as was the case in Steam Boats) a real efficacy in the principle of action. The general opinion of Engineers was not very favourable to Steam Boats when they were first brought forward as a novelty; many doubted if they could ever be made to perform well, particularly at sea; and others, who foresaw the possibility of that, doubted whether they would answer in point of expence of fuel, and wear and tear of engines and boilers. If no assistance or encouragement is given to new inventions when they are in the infant state which Steam Coaches are now in, persons who find that they only lose money when they expected to gain, by being the first to adopt the improvements, are liable to become disheartened, and give up the pursuit too precipitately, whereby their undertaking dies a natural death; and that is sometimes the case when it might have been established by another two or three weeks' continuance of the efforts; and that continuance might be induced by some small relief, like the reduction which was made by Parliament in the register tonnage of Steam Vessels, or the taking off of toils from the earliest Steam Coaches. If by any means they are enabled to go on till the proper plan of machinery and management is found out, they will afterwards keep their ground, because the profit of working by steam in lieu of horses will be very great. The present Steam Coaches are mere experiments, and the next editions of each plan of them will, I expect, be losing concerns, and will continue so to be for some time; under those circumstances, every small increase of their expences is a real retardation to that practical establishment of the invention which will render it useful to the public; such retardation by small causes is operative to a greater extent than can easily be conceived. Steam Coaches will very well bear all tolls and taxes to which other Coaches are subject, when they are able to carry passengers regularly and profitably; but they want encouragement now, instead of difficulties being thrown in their way. As to the right of tolls on turnpike roads, it should be recollected that turnpike roads are not property, like canals, but trusts, to be exercised for the benefit of the public; and if it is for the interest of the public that Steam Coaches should be brought into use, and if that bringing into use will be accelerated by suspending the tolls on them at first, the trustees of roads ought not to object to such an arrangement; the real amount of tolls they will forego, will be an exceedingly small per centage on the income of their tolls; for so long as Steam Coaches are losing concerns, they cannot be very numerous.

In the course of your examination, have you meant to confine your Evidence to Steam Coaches?—Yes, to Steam Coaches for public conveyance of passengers and parcels in the manner of Stage Coaches, and travelling at the rate of ten miles an hour on our best lines of turnpike roads, with occasional assistance of one or two post horses, where necessary to surmount unusual hills or very bad pieces of new laid road.—If it were thought admissible to begin with travelling at a less speed than that, and to carry goods only in the manner of Vans, the thing is nearer to accomplishment, because the accommodation and comfort of passengers would then be out of the question; and also the violence to which quick travelling Carriages are subjected, requires a greater strength of all the parts than would be necessary to carry the same weight at a slower speed. In other respects. Steam power will propel a Carriage as cheaply at a quick rate as at a slower rate; that fact is proved on railways, in actual business; and Steam Coaches will be the game whenever they can be made strong enough to bear quick motion without being overloaded with weight of machinery. That will be one of their great advantages over horse lạbour, which becomes more and more ex10 let pensive as the speed is increased. There is every reason to expect, that in the end the rate of travelling by Steam will be much quicker than the utmost speed of travelling by horses; in short, that safety to travellers will become the limit to speed, as is now the case on railways.

What is your opinion as to impelling waggons by steam?—I have never considered that at all in detail, and am not prepared to give evidence upon the subject. The price of carrying passengers or goods at a quick speed, as is done by Stage Coaches or Vans, will always be so much higher than the prices of carrying an equal weight at a slow speed, as is done by waggons, that I see no inducement to attempt Steam Waggons, which I think,would present almost all the same difficulties as Steam Vans. According to theory, the cost of Carriage by Steam will (as I have stated) be proportionate to weight and distance, without regard to speed of motion; for instance, to convey a Coach loaded with two tons for a distance of ten miles only, the same fuel will be consumed, and the same wear of Machinery will be occasioned whether that distance is run in one hour or in four hours. The wages of engineers, conductor and guard, will be only one-fourth with the quick speed, and the first outlay in machinery would be only one-fourth because four times as many engines must be on the road, with their attendants, at the same time, to do the work at a slow speed, as at a quick speed; but the money earned by the carrier at the slow speed, will be only a small part of what would be earned at the quick speed.

Taking into consideration the comparative expence of horse Carriages and Steam Carriages, do you suppose that Steam Carriages will be able to run for half the charges of horse Carriages?—My own idea is, that Steam Coaches will very soon after their establishment be run for one-third of the cost of the present Stage Coaches; but to become a business at all, it must necessarily be a business which will offer strong inducements to persons to embark in it; and to do that the rate of profit must be very much greater than that which is commonly expected to be realized by the proprietors of Stage Coaches; their present trade affords a less profit on the capital and trouble of management probably than any other sort of business which is carried on with spirit in this country. The great reason of that is, the constant loss by destruction of horses, the fluctuations of the price and quality of horse-keep, and the impossibility of reducing Stage Coach establishments in times when travelling business is flat; because the horses must be kept and men to attend them at all events, and the loss of running a Coach half employed is not so great as suspending it, and keeping the horses idle on short allowance, till better times come round. The profit of Stage Coaches which load well is very high, particularly in the fine travelling season, and that occasional profit creates an excitement which induce the injudicious setting up of more Coaches than are wanted for an average of all seasons; and for the reasons above stated, their expences when once set going, cannot be reduced to meet bad times. The adoption of Steam Coaches will set the trade free from its great commercial difficulty, because they can be laid up and kept idle without considerable loss and brought out again when wanted without any new outlay; also fuel does not fluctuate either in price or quality to any considerable extent like horse corn. In short, the capital embarked in a Steam Coach trade will not be so rapidly wasted as at present in horses. Owing to the great number of horses which must be first bought and then kept to do the same work as one Steam Coach, the first outlay in stock will be very small in Steam Coaches, compared with horses, the same of stables, hostlers and harness. The daily expences of fuel and attendants will be very much less than that of horse keep and attendance; the wear and tear of the Coaches and all that is coachmakers' work will be only the same as at present, but the wear and tear of Engines and machinery, though a very expensive item on each Engine, will be nothing to compare with the present repairs, loss and decay of horses, because the number of Engines is so small. Stage Coach horses require to be all renewed every three years, notwithstanding a heavy annual expence for what may be called repairs of horses; viz, harness, shoeing and farriery. Engines with an equal heavy annual expence of repairs to that of horses, will, when perfected, be kept up thereby in such a state as to last for many years without renewal. The metal parts of machinery only wear at particular places, which are capable of being repaired or renewed, 80 that they become as good as new; but a horse when worn to disease at any part, feet, eyes or lungs, becomes incapable of Stage Coach work for ever afterwards.

Do you apply the principle you have stated respecting the probable wear of the roads by Steam power being less than by horses, to heavy waggons?—Yes; my proposition that the wear of the roads will always be at the expence of the carrier, applies to all Carriages whatever, but more particularly to those impelled by Steam than to those drawn by horses, because Carriages drawn by horses may be 80 mismanaged, as to do very great injury to the roads, and yet may make good progress in travelling; for instance, a waggon having very narrow wheels, carrying a heavy over-load, having a sufficient team of strong heavy horses, may be drawn along although it breaks the road up to any extent, and that as much by the feet of the horses as by the narrow wheels; but if it were attempted to impel the same waggon by Steam power acting by the adhesion of the wheels to the road, they would slip round, and it would not get along the road. I am confident that Carriages to be impelled by Steam machinery turning the wheels cannot be made to answer any good purpose, either for conveyance of travellers or goods, so long as they materially injure the roads, because if the wheels slip materially on the road, or if they cut sensible ruts in the road, they will not advance the Carriage efficiently. On the other hand, horses may be made to draw a Carriage which will injure the road. I think that principle must apply to Steam Waggons as well as to Steam Coaches.

Then the heavier the loads to be drawn, the more important it is to apply Steam instead of horses, if the roads will be benefited by that substitution?—I think so, as far as the roads are concerned, but I doubt if Steam Waggons will offer any comparison of the profit to be derived from Steam Coaches. To get along the road. Steam Waggons will require very broad wheels, and there is no danger of doing injury to the road by them, for they will not get along if the wheels are too narrow, but narrow-wheeled waggons drawn by horses may do an injury to any extent, for extra horses may be put on, and they will injure the road with their feet at the same time that they draw a Carriage after them, which also injures the road. It will be a loss to the carrier to do so, but there is nothing in the nature of the operation to prevent it being done, as there would be in the case of Steam Waggons.

Of course, a Steam Carriage going slower than ten miles an hour will be more expensive to travel, on account of the greater expenditure of fuel?—No; the consumption of fuel, according to time, would be as much less as the motion would be slower; so that the consumption of fuel, according, to distance, would be the same, whether for a quick speed or for a slow speed; but when profit is considered, every thing is in favour of quick speed; because all goods carried slow must be carried cheap; and quick conveyance will bear the highest price of carriage, on account of the expence of going quick by horses. For instance, a ton of goods may be carried a mile by Steam power with a certain consumption of fuel, but it should take no more fuel to carry it a mile, at the rate of two and a half miles an hour than at ten miles an hour; there is some qualification to be made in that statement according to the state of the roads; it will be true if they are hard and good, but if they are heavy, the expence of fuel will be a little more for the quick speed than for the slower speed; and it is also to be understood, that the Engines must be suitably proportioned for attaining quick speed, because Engines, which are only adapted for slow motion do not work to so great an advantage when they are urged to work quick as when they are worked at or below the speed which the proportions of their parts are adapted to move with; nevertheless, that extra expence of going quick by Steam power will be but small, and nothing like the increased cost of travelling quick with horses; for horses have only a limited speed at which they can travel, if they have no load to carry or drag after them, the whole of their muscular strength being then required to advance the weight of their own bodies; the speed with which Stage Coaches now travel, approaches so near to the speed with which the horses could travel without any load, that their force of draught becomes very small. In all cases, horses lose force of draught in a much greater proportion than they gain speed, and hence the work they do becomes more expensive as they go quicker. The quickest stage-coaches travelling is now at the rate of eleven miles an hour, and that appears to be very near to the utmost limits which nature has prescribed for animal exertion; for those horses require renewal of the whole stock every two or three years. This is a comparison of Steam power and horse labour, during the time that each is actually in operation, but the real difference between the performance of a Steam Engine and that of a set of horses will be found to be very great, when it is considered, that by having one spare Steam Coach for every two or three which are on the road, those Coaches can travel continually all the year round, during fourteen or fifteen hours in every twenty-four, without any intermission except stopping for one or two minutes to take in water at every stage of about seven or eight miles; and thus each Steam Coach can travel 140 or 150 miles a day; whereas a set of four stage-coach horses can only work during seven hours and a half out of every twenty-four hours, or each horse can run fifteen miles a day, and that exertion wears them out very A cart-horse, travelling at the rate of two miles and half an hour, can work during eight hours out of every twenty-four hours, or he can travel twenty miles in a day. Suppose that in both cases, of horses going ten miles an hour or only two miles and a half an hour, the force of traction was the same during the time that they were actually drawing; even on that supposition, there would be the difference between twenty miles a day and fifteen miles a day in favour of slow travelling; but in considering the work performed, the great loss in the force of draught by quick travelling must be taken into account; and it will be found that a cart-horse, walking at two miles and a half an hour, could draw with a force of traction 100lbs. on an average, but that a Stage Coach-horse, running at ten miles an hour, cannot exert more than 28lbs. force of traction at an average. The above proportions of distance travelled, and force of traction exerted in each case being combined into one product, the proportion will stand thus:—20 miles a day × 100lbs. draught = 2000, to represent the work done by a horse travelling at the rate of two miles and a half an hour, and 15 miles a day x 28lbs. draught = 420, to represent the work done by a horse travelling at the rate of ten miles an hour, which is 4 to 1 in favour of a slow speed; when with Steam power there would be only a very slight difference of performance, at the quick or the slow speed.

Respecting the injury done to the roads by heavy Carriages, whether they are drawn by horses, or impelled by Steam power, you consider that weight for weight (including horses and engines as part of the weight) the one will not do more injury to the road than the other ?--In my opinion the Steam Carriages will do the least injury of the two. The horses by treading with their feet excavate and scrape out depressions in the surface of the road, that is particularly the case before the road materials are consolidated into a solid mass; and the evil of depressions or holes in the road is not merely the injury done by the feet of the horses to those particular parts of the road in which the depressions are made, but the wheels of other Carriages, which pass over such depressions, drop heavily with force into them, so as to make the depressions continually deeper and larger, and to loosen the surrounding stones. In this manner the horses after injuring the road themselves, prepare the way for further injury to the road by the wheels of Carriages. For to have the full benefit of the rolling action of the wheels, in consolidating the road materials, the latter must be laid smooth and level before the wheels come upon them; but if the materials are previously thrown up into little hills and holes, the wheels will do mischief instead of good.

Suppose the Engine and machinery in a Steam Carriage to weigh two tons, and to be able to advance an additional load, equal to their own weight along a good road, at an average speed of ten miles an hour, do you think that any additional toll should be imposed upon Steam Carriages beyond that paid by four-horse Stage Coaches, or Vans; assuming the four horses to weigh two tons, and to draw a load of two tons, at the rate of ten miles an hour?—In such a case I can see no reason whatever for any increase of toll; but the diminished wear of the roads, which I anticipate from the use of Steam in lieu of horses, will be a reason for a reduction of tolls, whenever such a diminution of wear is realized.

Would horses drawing 80 cwt, upon a road, with a slow walking pace, in your opinion do more injury to the road than an engine doing the same work?—I have had no experience of drawing heavy weights by Steam to enable me to form an opinion respecting the effect that the broad wheels, which must then be used, would have on the road, and what advancing power they would have before they began to slip on the road, without advancing the Carriage forwards; nor what would be the weight of Engines which could advance 80 cwt, at a slow speed. I feel some doubt of the practicability of making Steam Engines advance so many times their own weight, as I expect it would be, with effect, and I feel confident that in the sent state of the art, there would be no profit in doing it; but if it were accomplished I believe that the broad wheels of the Steam Waggon would do no injury to the road, whereas in heavy waggons, drawn slowly by horses, the horses do far much more injury by digging and scraping with their feet than is done by the horse in Coaches and Vans travelling quickly; because the waggon horses having a heavy pull to make, must choose places in the road where they can place their feet in depressions in order to get hold; hence on a good smooth road they slip and scrape up the surface.