Report from the Select Committee on Steam Carriages/Gurney
Minutes of Evidence.
Mercurii, 3e die Augusti, 1831.
Charles D. O. Jephson, Esquire,
in the chair
Mr. Goldsworthy Gurney, called in; and Examined.
Are you the proprietor of a Steam Carriage used on public roads?—Not the proprietor; I am the patentee.
On what roads have you commenced running such Carriages?—I have commenced on several roads. The first road I commenced was Edgeware, then Stanmore; I ran there for a short time only, principally experimentally; then to Barnet, to Edgeware, to Finchley, and other places. I also ran a Carriage on my own account to Bath and back; that was only one journey—an experimental journey. Since that they have been running as public stages, principally between Gloucester and Cheltenham.
For what period?—Since February last. They were stopped about three weeks, in consequence of an accident to one of the axle-trees; they were to begin again about this time.
Have you been yourself on these Carriages while they have been running?—Yes; in the first instance. I almost always accompanied the Carriage.
State in detail the progress which you have made in bringing these Carriages to their present improved state?—I must beg to have reference to the drawings. [The Witness produced the drawings. Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6.] This first drawing. No. 1, was the first experiment I made connected with the subject, in which I conceived I had removed the difficulty of driving Steam Carriages on common roads, by inventing a light and powerful boiler, of which this is a representation. The application of that boiler will be seen in No. 2. The boiler itself is not represented on the Carriage in this drawing, but simply the engine, and the modes of propelling the Carriage. This was in the year 1825. It was then a very prevalent opinion that the bite or friction of the power to the ground was not sufficient to propel the Carriage along a common road, particularly up hill; it was thought that the wheel would turn round, and the Carriage not proceed. With that view, the apparatus shown in this figure. No 2, which I call feet or propellers, were proposed to be used; the mode of action I presume will be seen from the drawing. I soon found by experience, in numerous experiments not connected with the drawing, that the propellers were rarely or never wanted, and I then applied the power immediately to the two hind wheels, through a crank, in the common mode of a steam-boat, the propellers being also fixed, but travelling slower than the wheels, were brought into action if the wheels slipped which it was thought would be the case in difficult situations. This Carriage went up Highgate Hill in 1826, and to Edgeware, also to Stanmore, and went up Stanmore Hill, and Brockley Hill, near Stanmore, and against all those hills the wheels never turned, and the legs never came into action. This is No. 3. After these experiments, the legs or propellers were entirely removed, and from further experiment it was found, by a peculiar application of the steam, (namely by "wiredrawing,") that the bite of one of the hind wheels was sufficient for all common purposes. If the steam was let on suddenly, the wheel would turn round, and the Carriage not go forward; but when wire-drawn, one wheel was found sufficient. By this arrangement, also, the Carriage was guided more accurately and more easily The second wheel was applied by uniting it with the crank at any time, if one was found insufficient.
In general, were the wheels connected together, or had they an independent motion?—Always one was attached to the axle; they had no independent motion; this will be seen by reference to No. 5, on the arm or carrier of the wheel (which is a part of the axle) and can be attached to the wheel at pleasure by a bolt, making the wheel also in that case part of the axle; this Carriage. I should observe, ran to Barnet, and went up all the hills to Barnet, in 1827, with one wheel only attached to the axle, and was run for about eighteen months experimentally in the neighbourhood of London; from these experiments showing that one wheel was sufficient to propel the Carriage, and the Carriage being at the same time reduced two-thirds in weight, it was thought desirable to draw another Carriage, instead of to carry on the same; that will be seen in No. 5. This Carriage went to Bath, and over all the hills between Cranford Bridge and Bath, and returned with only one wheel attached to the axle; the other carrier by means of attachment having broken in the first onset, and not having been repaired until after its return; the Carriage was also injured slightly at Melksham, in consequence of a riot there; we waited about two days at Bath to get this injury repaired, and returned from Melksham to Cranford Bridge in ten hours, a distance of eighty-four miles, including stoppages. I have come now almost to the practical application of it; this is a drawing of the Carriages we are now building (No. 6.)
Have you made any alteration in the formation of the boilers since 1825?—We have altered and changed in the mechanism only; the principle has been invariably adhered to; the present Carriage is deprived of its chimney and a variety of other disagreeables about the Carriage.
Has your principle with respect to all remained the same!—Precisely the same.
How far have you improved the formation of your working Carriage as to weight?—The weight was a principal objection to the practical application of the Carriage; the first Carriage of a given power weighed four tons; this was objectionable on account of its weight; which was severely felt in consequence of its effect on the roads. I thought it would injure the roads, which injury would produce a toll that would perhaps injure the economy of it: No. 3, weighed four tons; No. 4, weighed three tons, with the same power; No. 5, two tons, with the same power; the present Carriages building will not weigh more than 35 cwt, with the same power.
What does the Carriage which runs between Gloucester and Cheltenham weigh?—By a letter from a Magistrate, now produced, it is stated to weigh nearly three tons; it ought to weigh only 45 cwt.; it it weighs three tons, there is extra weight, of which I know nothing; this which I produce a sketch of, marked No. 6, weighs 35 cwt, and it has the same power. Those Carriages at Gloucester were built principally under the superintendence of another person.
When you state the weight of 35 cwt, you mean the weight of the travelling Carriage alone, without the weight of the Passengers, or the weight of fuel and water?—Yes, just so. I think it is possible to reduce the weight considerably as improvements go on; I have a Carriage now building which I do not expect will weigh above five cwt., which I expected to do the work of about one horse, and carry two or three people; speed is a particular object, and it is not intended to carry anything more than light parcels.
Into what Stages would you divide your journies most conveniently?—I think about seven miles.
What weight of fuel and water would you lay in for such a stage?—The fuel and water will be in proportion to the size and power of the Carriage.
For a machine, weighing 35 cwt, marked by you No. 6, what weight of fuel and water would you require?—Three bushels and a half of coke is the quantity we take to supply this distance, and the first charge two bushels; the first charge always remaining, it decreases of course down to the first charge, and taking the mean it will be 3¾. The weight of water at present I think is about 10 gallons a mile which is consumed, that would be 70 gallons, a gallon weighing about 10 lbs, making 700lbs., the mean of this will give the quantity. If the roads are good at it does not take so much, we can do with almost half the quantity; if the roads are bad we must take the whole quantity, and the mean will be 350 lbs.
Will you state the progressive alterations you have made in the diameter of your wheel, and the breadth of the tire?—The diameter of the wheel has generally been the same, about five feet.
What difference is there between the fore and bind wheels?—About a foot in diameter difference; about the proportion of an ordinary carriage. The power is attached to the hind wheels?—To the hind wheels only.
Do the wheels follow in the same track?—That is a matter of option.
The Committee understand that they do not in that which travels between Cheltenham and Gloucester?—Perhaps that is the case there; it is a matter of convenience in some experiments; I have built them with three wheels only, one wheel in front, and in some, as in No. 3, with six wheels, my present Carriage has only four.
Do the hind wheels of your present Carriage follow in the same track with the fore wheels?—Yes; those Carriages now building will do so; the hind wheels will be nearer to each other than in many others.
What diameter do you propose to make the propelling wheels of your new Carriages?—I propose to have them about five feet; I would observe, that by taking a wheel of five feet diameter off the axle, and putting on one of two feet six, the engine would be multiplied double in its power, and lose of course one half in speed; in some cases it may be desirable to do so if the Carriages are used for general purposes; for speed and dragging of heavy weights alternately, larger or smaller wheels may be put to meet circumstances as they occur.
From the experiments you have made, with a view to proportion the diameter of the wheels with the weight to be drawn and the velocity required, what diameter of propelling wheel do you think will be generally used?—Five feet; the piston of the engine should not travel more than two miles and a half per hour; therefore we may multiply from this rate to any speed we please.
What is the breadth of the tire of your present wheel?—None less than two inches; but in late experiments we found a wide tire more desirable than a narrow one, and we have increased it to about three inches and a half in width; we found that there is no increase of power necessary with a wide wheel, but I think on the contrary rather less, we have not been able to decide positively the true variation in power, but the difference is so slight, that it is not perceptible.
What is the ordinary width of the tire of wheels of coaches?—I think about two inches; in a private carriage rather under two, and in stage coaches over two inches.
Of how many horse power is your ordinary travelling Engine?—Twelve nominal Steam-engine horse power; to work eight hours it takes the common stage coach 32 horses; an Engine propelling the same weight for eight hours should be considered a 32 horse-power, according to the rule laid down by Engineers, but this is not true as to locomotive Engines.
Taking your latest improvement, to what number of draught horses would it be equivalent?—I think about 10 cwt, will do the work of a horse on the road; 35 cwt, will be about 3½ horses' work always.
You mean that it will displace about three horses and a half at a time on the road?—Yes, in each stage it will displace 3½ or 4 horses, and about 30 horses in the eight hours.
Is that in practice, or in idea?—Practice.
Is the chief weight supported on springs?—The whole is on springs.
What is the weight of an ordinary stage coach?—About 24 cwt; I think from 18 to 24.
How many persons will that take?—I think about 18.
What would be the weight of your Engine Carriage sufficiently powerful to draw a Carriage containing 18 persons?—The weight of the propelling Carriage would be about the weight of four horses; the weight of the Carriage drawn would be precisely that of a Carriage drawn by horses, and I find the weight of a horse to average about 10 cwt.; there fore, taking four horses at 10 cwt., the four horses would be two tons, which is somewhere about the weight of my Carriage; to do the same work, some horses weigh as much as 16 cwt., some considerably less than 10 cwt.
Have you examined the effect on the roads of the propelling wheels of your Carriage?—As far as I am enabled to judge. I should say that they did no more injury than any other Carriage of the same weight; I mean the Carriage itself, weight for weight. I have taken the loss of iron from the tires of the wheels, and compared it with that of the loss from other carriages running the same number of miles, and I found the loss the same nearly.
Do you find that the wheel never slides in the turn?—If it does, it is either imperfect or the fault of the engineer; if the steam is wire-drawn (using the technical term) it never does so; if the steam is laid on suddenly on the Engines, it acts like a percussion, and affects the wheels as if struck with a hammer; the Carriage, of course, would not be propelled in such case.
Practically, as far as you have seen in the operations of these Carriages, does the wheel slide in that way frequently?—It may sometimes at starting for an instant, but never on the road unless it is over-weighted; I mean if it has an over-weight attached to it.
Is there much smoke created by your Carriages—There is no smoke unless any smoky matter gets accidentally into the fire, the fuel being coke; of course there will be smoke if there are coals.
Are you frequently obliged to let off steam?—Yes, but not openly; the steam is allowed to escape from the safety-valve into a chamber peculiarly constructed, which prevents any nuisance from it.
There is no annoyance either from smoke or steam?—There is no annoyance either from smoke or steam, when the Engine is perfect.
Have you found that horses are more liable to be frightened by passing your Carriages, than passing other Carriages?—As far as my own observation goes. I should say about the same; I have travelled with a Carriage. I think, five years, more or less, every week; I have been very frequently in the public streets of London with the Steam Carriage, and the roads round London, and also in the private and public roads in the country; I have certainly seen horses shy often, but never saw a horse make a dead stand.
Is there a very peculiar noise attending the motion of your Engine Carriage?—The noise of wire-drawing, &c, is at the will of the engineer; if the Carriage should make a noise, he has the means of stopping the noise; but there ought not to be any disagreeable noise.
Must not the noise proceed from the imperfection of the works?—Yes, and that only.
Do you attribute the startling of horses to the peculiar noise of the Engine, or to its unusual appearance?—I think it must be from its unusual appearance. It appears from an observation on the Carriages at Cheltenham, made in this Committee, to have been more troublesome than any where else; those Carriages were made with curtains, to inclose persons who might ride in them, and the Carriage altogether rather more outré in its appearance, from the flapping of those curtains, or some circumstance of that kind, the horses have been startled, or accidents have occurred there.
Are you aware that there is an imperfection in the Carriage at Cheltenham, which is stated to occasion noise?—I have not seen much of these Carriages; I was never at Cheltenham but twice or thrice, and then but for a short time.
What have you found to be the effect of the wheels On a very rough road, full of ruts?—If you start the Carriage from a rut, it takes more power; but when the Carriage is in motion, the momentum takes it over all the inequalities with the usual force.
Do you find that when the propelling wheel gets into a rut, the first power it exerts is in sliding?—Frequently; and sometimes it will be necessary to attach the two wheels, for one wheel will not be sufficient to get it out of that difficulty; the engineer in such case attaches a second wheel by the bolt, and I have never known a situation yet, in which a carriage with both wheels attached will not get out; I have seen it in a clay pit eight inches deep propel itself through, having sunk through the upper surface of gravel in a yard.
When you attach the second wheel, is the increased power owing to the more favourable situation of the cranks?—The power of the Engine remains the same, but the application of it is doubled by friction.
Suppose that both wheels were in the rut?—I have seen both wheels in a rut; in the case I have just spoken of they were both in the rut; in a different state of weather, the effect, hold or bite on the wheels is very different; if the state of the road is between half wet and half dry, it is more apt to slide; and in some instances with a heavy weight attached, we are obliged to go with both wheels locked, when the same weight would have been taken by one wheel only in very wet or dry weather.
Is it only in starting that that difficulty occurs?—Only in starting on a level or slight incline; but up hills we have sometimes been obliged to attach both wheels, the bite only from the one wheel being not sufficient to propel a load behind it.
What is the operation of the propelling wheel when it meets with the obstruction of a large stone on the road?—If the difficulty is so great that the Carriage cannot advance, it slips on the stone; but I have blocked up the wheels of the Carriage with square pieces of wood four inches diameter, and started it when so blocked up.
In proportion to the size of such obstruction there is liability in the crank to break?—Certainly; but the cause which occasions a crank to break is one which cannot be explained on common principles; it frequently happens, as in Steam-boats; and very often in this Carriage, when the power applied to it is not equal to its being broken, the accident occurs, and must be referred to a jar or percussion; the axles are unusually large in consequence.
What is the throw of the crank?—Half the diameter of the stroke of the Engine; eight inches and a half to nine inches.
With a wheel of five feet diameter what is the throw of your crank?—About nine inches.
What is the length of the stroke of your cylinder?—I think 16 to 18 inches; the crank is half that. I may state here, that I have had accidents of breaking the crank two or three times during my experiments; the last crank was broken in consequence of going through some rough stones laid unusually thick. I understand as much as 18 inches deep.
What do you anticipate will be the most frequent accident which will happen to your drawing machines?—I should say the derangement of the pumps is most likely to occur, in consequence of which the Carriage would merely stop.
During the experiments you have been making, have you frequently had your tubes burst?—Very often.
Do you conceive you have remedied the probability of such occurrence?—Yes; the first tubes we used were iron gas tubes, which were not welded, but simply "butted" together; the consequence was, that whenever any great pressure came upon them the seam opened; but from practice and experience we found it necessary to wrap over, or over-lap the, edges, and weld them from end to end; and now we are not subject to those accidents.
What is the diameter of the tubes of your boiler?—We make them from half an inch to two inches the best size. I think, is an inch diameter.
To what pressure per square inch do you prove them?—To about 800 lbs.; I think they would bear 2,000 lbs.
What is the greatest pressure they would bear?—It is impossible to say. I have never been able to hurst one when well made, when lapped and welded. What is the average pressure on the boiler per square inch, in your ordinary rate of travelling? About 70 lbs.
And you have tried the tubes to 800?—Yes, we sometimes may work up to 100lbs, and 120lbs.; but that is a case of great emergency.
What is the greatest probable pressure it will be exposed to?—Never more than 130 lbs.; the safety valve blows at 70 lbs, to the inch; it is generally on the lift on a level hard road; I do not think that the pressure is more than 20 lbs, to an inch on the piston. Is it likely that persons would ordinarily work with the safety valve on the lift?-Yes; or nearly so, sometimes.
Is there not a waste of fuel when you work on the lift?—It will be in proportion to the escape of steam from the safety-valve; the pressure on the boiler is 70 lbs.; on the Engine frequently it does not exceed 20 lbs, to an inch; and when I was asked the pressure I worked at. I supposed the question referred to the pressure on the piston collectively.
What is the thickness of your tubes?—The thickness of the iron is about the eighth of an inch.
What is the thickness of your working cylinder?—It is about three quarters of an inch; it has also ribs round it.
Of what metal is your working cylinder formed?—Cast-iron; we have worked gun metal, but cast-iron appears to be best.
Have you found that there is great facility in guiding those Carriages?—I have always found the most perfect command in guiding them.
Supposing you were going at your ordinary rate of eight miles an hour, could you stop immediately, or would the carriage run for any distance?—In case of emergency, we might instantly throw the steam on the reverse side of the pistons, and stop within a few yards; the stop of the carriage is singular; it would be supposed that the momentum would carry it far forward, but it is not so; the steam brings it up gradually and safely, though rather suddenly.
Supposing you were going at the rate of eight miles an hour, can you say at what number of yards it would be possible to stop?—I would say within six or seven yards.
How would you manage on a declivity?—On a declivity we are well stored with apparatus; we have three different modes of dragging the Carriage.
You have stated that you found no difficulty in guiding the drawing Carriage, or any difficulty in guiding the Carriage which is drawn?—Not the least; it is peculiarly connected, so that the fore wheels of the Carriage drawn follow the tracks of the hind-wheels of the Steam Carriage drawing, although making a circle of 15 feet diameter, which is a singular property.
In what circle do you think you could turn both Carriages?—In a circle of 10 feet, the inner diameter.
Supposing you were going at the rate of eight miles an hour, in what inner circle do you suppose you could turn?—I should be very sorry to attempt to turn within a small circle; I think I might say, probably it might safely be done in one of 100 feet diameter.
In the further progress of the improvement of this description of Carriage, do you suppose that greater weight will be drawn, by adding to the number of Carriages, or by increasing the size of the one Carriage drawn?—The Carriage drawn with its load should never exceed three tons, and the Carriage to draw it should never exceed the weight I have previously stated, about two tons or 50 cwt.; it is possible to draw more than one Carriage on good roads, but I do not think it would be a circumstance of common occurrence.
What have the chief inconveniences been that you have met with on your journies?—The principal inconveniences we have met with have been minor derangements of some parts of the machinery, such as the valves of the pump being deranged, or tanks leaking, or something of that kind; I never met with any serious accident, except perhaps the first accident in going up Highgate Hill, which was five years ago; the Carriage was not then complete in reference to dragging. I went up the hill contrary to the expectations of every body present, and the workmen were so delighted at it that they neglected to lock the wheel; the carriage was started down the hill without any drag to it; it became difficultly manageable, and ran against a stone, and was upset. This is the only accident I have ever experienced myself; I believe Sir Charles Dance once upset the carriage in a first essay; those are the only accidents of the kind I am aware of.
It has been stated that one of your engines has blown up at Cheltenham; is that the case?—I am not aware of that; I rather believe that the lifting of the safety valve when the Carriage stops is considered to be a bursting, which I think must be so in this statement; I saw the Carriages the day after the accident of the crank breaking, where it is stated to have burst, and certainly the Carriage had not blown up then; nothing more than the safety valve had lifted; I came to Cheltenham the day after the accident occurred.
What was the nature of the accident which occurred?—The breaking of one of the cranks, occasioned by the extra difficulty the Carriage was placed in; new stones were laid in a hollow of the road. I am told about 18 inches deep; the Carriage had gone through it twice with twenty passengers; the third time it fractured the axle, from the extra force necessary to get it through; the road was in an unusual state; I saw the passengers of a four-horse coach get down in the stones. I was told at the time, by people of great respectability, that all the two-horse coaches invariably put down their passengers; that the mail was stopped; that there were two waggons and two coaches in the stones stopped at the same time, and that they were obliged to exchange their horses to get through.
Has any other accident occurred to that Carriage except that you have now stated?—Nothing that I am aware of material.
Have the wheels of your Carriages frequently caught fire?—Never; I saw the three Carriages the day after the accident; neither one had taken fire; I am sorry such an idea should for a moment exist; think it has been occasioned by misconception or prejudiced mis-statements.
Is the construction of your boiler and of your fire-place such, that it is impossible for the Carriage to catch fire?—I believe it to be impossible.
You have stated that you require to charge your Engine once in seven miles?—Yes, to charge the tank with water, and to take fresh fuel.
Do you anticipate, in the course of your experience, that you would be able to overcome that inconvenience of being obliged to charge so frequently?—We can now go double the distance; but we should have a weight of water and a weight of fuel, a greater expence to carry than if we take in one charge at seven mile stages.
Are the wheels you ordinarily travel with four inches wide on the tire?—From three and a half to four inches.
Have you any information to give to the Committee in relation to the relative wear of the tire of wheels and the shoes of horses?—That is a new horse shoe [producing one,] and this is a shoe, of the same size, worn on the streets of London nine days, the shoe has lost about 18 ounces.
Have you any means of ascertaining how many hours a day it had been out?—The horse ran in a cab; it was out a certain number of hours, I think, three or four hours each day; the smith was taking off the shoe which had been worn, and putting on the other, when I asked him to let me have them. The difference between the wear and tear of tires and horse shoes on the roads in the neighbourhood of London are in the proportions of about three-fourths on the shoes, and one-fourth on the tires; but in London, over the streets, about seven-eighths and one-eighth. I would observe, that on railroads, where horses draw the Carriages, the expence of keeping the horse roads is so great, that the proprietors frequently go to a great expence to pave them. From Cheltenham to Gloucester, for instance, and in many other parts of England, this is the case. I would also call the attention of the Committee to some parts of London, where the horses and the wheels continue to pass over the same ground respectively, as in Wych-street; and I would submit the importance of the Committee referring to the expence of keeping the towing-paths of Canals in repair, where only horses, and comparatively few, travel over them. At this moment those are the only means enabling me to speak to the relative wear and tear.
Have you used your Carriages on pavements?—Yes; never to run continually on a pavement, but to run in and out of towns.
Do they run easier on pavements than on ordinary roads?—Yes; they only take about a quarter the power on a pitched pavement; that is, a quarter of the power they would over a gravelled road.
In the progress of this improvement, do you anticipate that it will be necessary to adapt some portion of the turnpike roads to Carriages of this description, or do you think they can be put into operation on the turnpike roads as they are now existing?—I think they can be put into operation on the turnpike roads as they are now existing; I have no doubt at all about it.
You do not anticipate the necessity of paved roads being made for the purposes of those Carriages?—As far as economy goes, in the expence of power, it may be desirable, but for the practical application of the steam it is not necessary.
Can any proportion be drawn between the friction occasioned by the horses' feet and the tire of the wheel?—I do not see how it is possible to do so, unless you take the loss or abrasion of the two metals respectively, in a given quantity of work or miles travelled over.
Have you any practical experience in the repair of turnpike roads?–I have had my attention turned to it, connected only with this subject; I have seen the great expence of keeping towing-paths and horse paths in repair; and I have seen the great expence of keeping the streets in repair, where horses alone travel; and I have seen the great wear and tear of stop iron shoes, when compared with the wheels of carriages.
Have you any plan to submit for fixing the Tolls on Steam Carriages?—The plan I should propose would be, if I may be allowed the term, that an iron horse of the same weight as one of flesh and bones should pay the same toll; and taking one horse to weigh 10 cwt., that for every 10 cwt, the Steam Carriage weighs, it should pay the same toll as one horse pays; although I do not admit that the same weight carried on four wheels will do as much mischief as on four, hoofs. If we take the Turnpike Acts, and look at the comparative rate of tolls charged when a horse is drawing and when he is not drawing. I shall be, I conceive, borne out in my position.
Can you point to any clause in Private Bills which press more than you conceive they should on Steam Carriages? There is one, the Liverpool and Prescot Road Bill, this Session, charging a toll per horse-power, which it is difficult to determine; my objection to that is, that if the horse-power is taken as the nominal Engine horse-power, a Steam Coach would have to pay 2l. 8s. where a stage coach pays only 4s. a toll. The next is the Bathgate, near Edinburgh road, where the tolls are on weight, and an Engine of three tons (about the usual weight of a loaded four-horse stage coach), would have to pay 1l. 7s. 1d., when four horses would have to pay 5s. The next is the Ashburn and Totness Road Bill, where 2l. would be charged on the Steam Carriage and the Carriage attached, being 5s. on each wheel; four horses, at the same time, would have to pay 3s. The next is the Teignmouth and Dawlish Roads; they are in the proportion of 2s. and 12s.
What is the most favourable instance to Steam Carriages?-The Metropolis Roads near London charge 1s, for four horses, and 2s. for the Steam Carriage and the one drawn; I complain of that because it limits me to a particular kind of Carriage; I am building one which will not weigh more than 5 cwt, and carry only two or three persons, and it would be excessive to have to pay 2s.; there is no reduction if it is no bigger than a wheelbarrow; being propelled by machinery, it will be charged double.
How many Private Bills have been introduced this Session in which Steam Carriages have been specially taxed?—I have fifty-four, which I now produce; I understand there are others.
Have any of them passed into a law?—Yes, some of them have.
In your opinion, what proportion of the tolls should horses and carriages be chargeable with?—Taking the average of the amount of tolls throughout the country, it will be found that where a horse pays a penny not drawing, he pays about three-pence when he is drawing; in that case the toll upon the coach is nominally put upon the horse (it says, so many horses drawing); four horses drawing will be a shilling; four horses passing through, not drawing, will be four-pence; in some cases it is three half-pence a horse when not drawing, and six-pence when drawing; but in general the proportions appear to be, three eighths the toll placed upon the horse, and five-eighths upon the carriage; three half-pence a horse not drawing, and six-pence drawing, gives three-fourths; but the mean is about three-eighths and five-eighths; so that the toll is virtually about five-eighths on the carriage, and three-eighths on the horse. I have previously stated that I have had horses weighed, and found the average about 10 cwt. each horse; therefore, if a Steam Engine weighs 10 cwt. it should pay only as one horse when it passes through not drawing, and as one horse drawing when it has any thing attached to it; a 10 cwt. Steam Engine cannot propel more than one horse can draw; therefore the weight drawn cannot exceed a certain quantity. If the weight of the Engine exceeds 10 cwt and not 20, it should pay as two horses; if it exceeds 20 and not 80, it should pay as three horses; if 30 cwt. and not exceeding 40, it should pay as four horses; and so on.
Practically horses drawing frequently draw a weight of 80 cwt.?—Yes, sometimes, but 15 cwt. a horse is the usual weight. I have always felt a great anxiety that the weight of the Steam Engine should not injure the road, and I have felt desirous of not introducing it until it was reduced; and I now cheerfully admit, that if the weight of the Locomotive exceeded 60 cwt., which is the weight of the present loaded stage coaches, with the passengers and their luggage, there should be a very heavy toll put on them. I would also propose that if my wheels are wider than four inches, the tolls should be less; if they are six inches, then they should be still less; but taking the principle of 10 cwt of iron and copper to do the work of one horse, and that it should pay the same tolls, and that no weight of Steam Carriage should be admitted above 60 cwt on the road, I certainly should myself be content, and as I cannot for a moment imagine that the 10 cwt, running on four wheels can do so much harm as 10 cwt carried on four feet, that the interests of Turnpike Trusts would be fairly preserved by such a scale of tolls.
What is the amount of toll charged between Gloucester and Cheltenham?—Five shillings and sixpence.
What would be charged on a four-horse coach?—Two shillings and eight-pence.
Your Steam Carriage, according to the last improvement, weighs 35 cwt. without the weight of persons to direct it?—Yes, and without the weight of the fuel.
Do you not consider that the Steam Carriages would be applicable not only to the moving Carriages at a rapid rate, but also to moving certain weights at a slower pace?—I think it is possible, but it would be very expensive, because I find that when you get below a rate of four miles an hour, the expence in fuel is greater than the expence in horses; if the rate exceeds four miles an hour, then it is cheaper, and it becomes cheaper geometrically over horses as you get up.
What is the greatest weight which you conceive your Steam Carriages could draw after them on a level road, at the rate of four miles an hour, the Carriage weighing two tons?—Every 10 cwt in the Engine would draw what one horse could draw, so that two tons would draw as much as four horses.
Will the rate of tolls you have remarked in the Bills you have produced, prohibit the use of Steam Coaches on these roads?—Certainly.
What do you calculate to be the comparative expence of running a Steam Carriage and running a coach with four horses?—That varies in different situations, according to the price of coke and the price of labour; it is in all cases considerably less, at least one-half less.
You anticipate that the principal use of Steam Carriages will be the conveyance of passengers and at one half of the expence at which they travel now?—Yes; and in less time.
Can you deliver in to the Committee a detailed estimate of the expence of running a Steam Coach, and one of running an ordinary coach?—Yes, I will prepare them.
At what rate do you suppose it would be safe to run Steam Carriages on the public roads?—I have run them safely eighteen and twenty miles an hour; but twelve miles an hour is perfectly safe and practicable; the rate will be determined by practice principally; in directing the carriage at present there is no difficulty or danger in guiding the carriage at this rate.
Would there not he danger in passing a carriage drawn by horses?—If the engineer was careless it might be, but not with care; a mail-coach travels far beyond that at times.
You make your wheels cylindrical?—They must be cylindrical, for they turn with the axles.
None of yours are less than three inches now?—No; three inches to three and a half, even where the Carriage weighs two tons weight.