User:Londonjackbooks/sandbox3

Notes to self

Help:Footnotes and endnotes

How to phrase?... If I decide to use a, b, c, etc. for ref/notes (see example), can I always begin with "a" (within the same poem/Mainspace page) as long as the reference within the footnote appears in a new footnote? Do you know what I mean? If so, how would you have phrased my question? Londonjackbooks (talk) 13:20, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes; Yes; "Can (Should) the footnotes within a footnote use the same sequence as those in previous footnotes? Or do I need to continue the sequence from footnote to footnote?" For me, consistency of approach across a work is important, so either a, b, c, … or *, †, ‡, §, ¶, … but not a mixture of the two (unless of course, there are more than two layers of footnote—something I hope never to see in my proofreading!) Beeswaxcandle (talk) 17:43, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

* * *

I should point out that Help:Footnotes and endnotes#Endnotes says that if endnotes will be on the same main page as their references they should be treated as <ref></ref> with a {{smallrefs}} as usual. If the main page will be subpaged, then references should have their own subpage. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 18:56, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

* * *

To BWC: That would seem to apply to some of the Portal:Romanes Lectures I'm working on,—where the endnotes are on the same page as the body of text in the Main. Proofreaders (of the Romanes Lecture texts) have used anchors and <sup>[[#Note1|1]]</sup> for this purpose, and I have been copying that method with Machiavelli. Is that not ok? (I might not be understanding the Help page statement) Footnotes still pepper some of the texts, although endnotes are prevalent. Is the help page suggesting that an editor copy the text of each endnote and place it on the corresponding Index: page? Otherwise, how would you treat the endnote as a footnote (using <ref>s) otherwise? I am confused. Please untangle my brain! Londonjackbooks (talk) 19:46, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Childe Harold's Pilgrimage is another example of where footnotes and endnotes reside on the same Mainspace page but I am dealing with them separately (endnotes w/ anchors; & footnotes 'traditionally'.). [To add, the endnotes also contain footnotes, and those footnotes are combined with the 'traditional' footnotes at the end of the Mainspace page. Londonjackbooks (talk) 14:53, 9 February 2013 (UTC)] Londonjackbooks (talk) 19:49, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, the help page is saying that the endnote text should be copied to the appropriate place in the Page: namespace. However, it was written after most of the Romanes Lectures were proofread. This means that there is now a tension between maintaining a consistent style for a "work" and following best practice per the help page advice. The tension is resolved by remembering a) that the help page is advice rather than policy; and, b) that we're trying to make the work usable in the mainspace for both the casual and the more serious reader.

We do need to amend the help page a little to indicate that it means changing the pages in the Page: namespace and refering the reader to the section at the bottom of the page. We also need to add a section about how to deal with footnotes within footnotes. Could you please have a go at this as you're doing so many of them at the moment? Beeswaxcandle (talk) 18:35, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

* * *

Hello. Please forgive this intrusion, all. May I make a small addition to the pending review list, noting that the documentation against parameter "group" at {{smallrefs/doc}}, contains a pointer to w:Footnotes#Separating_reference_lists_and_explanatory_notes. Regrettably WP has moved on and this anchor is now gone. If the new help text should happen to be amenable, perhaps this link should be re-assigned less, umm, pointlessly? MODCHK (talk) 00:15, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Other direction

BWC's suggestion: my rendering
EncycloPetey's suggestion
MODCHK's direction: Embedding references within footnotes (Wikipedia)

Cases of footnotes within footnotes

Straightforward cases

... Till the tired jade the wheel forgets to hurl,
Provoking envious gibe from each pedestrian churl.^[1]

↑

And droughty man alights and roars for "Roman Purl."^[1]—[MS. D.]
—— for Punch or Purl.—[D.]

↑ 1. A festive liquor so called. Query why "Roman"? [Query if "Roman"? "'Purl Royal,' Canary wine with a dash of the tincture of wormwood" (Grose's Class. Dict.).]

... Till the tired jade the wheel forgets to hurl,<br />
Provoking envious gibe from each pedestrian churl.<ref>{{block center|''And droughty man alights and roars for'' "''Roman Purl''."{{ref|1}}—[''MS. D''.]<br />
—— ''for Punch or Purl''.—[''D''.]}}<!-- a <br /> should go here if one wasn't already inherent as in this case with the block center template -->
{{note|1}} 1. A festive liquor so called. Query why "Roman"? [Query if "Roman"? "'Purl Royal,' Canary wine with a dash of the tincture of wormwood" (Grose's ''Class. Dict''.).]</ref>

Cases that span more than one page

A nice long example from Childe Harold's Pilgrimage Canto I: [1]

Index page begins here. Note some 'fudging' of block center formatting.

Haven't figured out what to do yet if a footnote which spans more than one page contains a footnote which breaks between pages, but I am working on it as I write. Londonjackbooks (talk) 19:56, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Okay... I guess I tackled a similar situation before. What I figure needs to be done is: All of the footnotes within the footnote (in this case 3) need to be placed on the last Index:page which contains the original footnote. Otherwise, the footnote & all corresponding footnotes w/in will be split up in the Main (which would make sense—but not to me initially). Basically, another "fudge" case. (reference pp. 108 & 109)

Alt exs.:

Muddlesome cases

A case of footnotes within footnotes within footnotes that span more than one page from Childe Harold's Pilgrimage Canto I: [2]

Index page begins here. Note some 'fudging' of block center formatting.

Footnotes or anchors or both?

Works with footnotes and endnotes

"If the original work put the notes at the end of the section or chapter and the full section or chapter will be transcluded into one subpage in the main namespace: use the method..." (Endnotes) Additional example: If the original work contains footnotes as well as endnotes placed at the end of the section or chapter (which contain their own footnotes), and the full section or chapter will be transcluded into one subpage in the main namespace, use the method ——.

"Unlike footnotes, endnotes have the advantage of not affecting the layout of the main text, but may cause inconvenience to readers who have to move back and forth between the main text and the endnotes." [Note (typography)]

Endnotes, if particularly lengthy (i.e., if they span several pages), would be cumbersome to proofreaders and validators to have to wade through in the Page:namespace if the material has (perhaps somewhat compulsorily) been copied from its original Page:namespace page in order for it to be incorporated into regular footnotes. If the moved endnotes also contain their own footnotes, this further complicates matters for the editor/proofreader/validator. However, Re: "inconvenience to readers who have to move back and forth between the main text and the endnotes": This should also be a factor in deciding how to best present the material. Author's intent as well as reader convenience should both trump any inconvenience on the part of the editor.

At WS, it is an editor's primary purpose to replicate the rendering of text with author's intent always in mind, wherever possible. In cases where publishers were restricted in certain areas, we may not be here, and we can adjust accordingly but without deviating from the original intent of the author/publisher. Ease of reader should be secondary to author's intent, in my opinion.

Decide: whether endnotes reside on same Mainspace page as text or are on a subpage: Depends (in my opinion) on each individual text and how sections are dealt with both within the text as well as how listed in the TOC. All this would factor into how all info is best presented in the Main.

It is my opinion that both footnotes and endnotes should be used in Childe Harold's Pilgrimage (see ex. with Canto II) based on the above factors as well as the nature/purpose of the use of the footnotes/endnotes in the text itself. Note: Endnotes in the work have their own footnotes, which I am incorporating into the main body of footnotes (as the poem/notes/footnotes all reside on same subpage-per-Canto).

ex. Endnote 6 (which contains its own footnotes, as well as footnotes within a footnote,—which, as of this writing, I haven't proofread yet due to laziness) spans over 4 pages. To transfer all that text to the originating Index page would be sheer madness.

Works with only endnotes

"...the help page is saying that the endnote text should be copied to the appropriate place in the Page: namespace." (BWC)

Factors: Length of work/length of endnotes; and do endnotes have their own footnotes???
Will/should endnotes reside on same Mainspace page as text or will they be placed on a new subpage?

Sandbox

NOTES.

Note 1.
———While Ismael's bow, &c.

The army of Mahomet the Second, at the siege of Constantinople, was thronged with fanatics of all sects and nations, who were not enrolled amongst the regular troops. The sultan himself marched upon the city from Adrianople; but his army must have been principally collected in the Asiatic provinces, which he had previously visited.

Note 13.

The idea expressed in this stanza is beautifully amplified in Schiller's poem "Das Lied der Glocke."

cup called the Bowl of Liberty, which was afterwards poured forth in libation.

Note 22.
The Bowl of Liberty—

One of the ceremonies by which the battle of Platæa was annually commemorated was, to crown with wine a

Note 21.

The owl upon Afrasiab's towers hath sung
Her watch-song, &c.

Mahomet II., on entering, after his victory, the palace of the Byzantine emperors, was strongly impressed with the silence and desolation which reigned within its precincts. "A melancholy reflection on the vicissitudes of human greatness forced itself on his mind, and he repeated an elegant distich of Persian poetry: 'The spider has wove his web in the imperial palace, and the owl hath sung her watch-song on the towers of Afrasiab.'"—Decline and Fall, &c, vol. xii. p. 240.

Note 20.
And stanch the blood-drops, Genoa's fallen son!

"The immediate loss of Constantinople may be ascribed to the bullet, or arrow, which pierced the gauntlet of John Justiniani (a Genoese chief). The sight of his blood, and exquisite pain, appalled the courage of the chief, whose arms and counsels were the firmest rampart of the city."—Decline and Fall, &c, vol. xii. p. 229.

Note 19.
From the Greek fire shoots up, &c.

"A circumstance that distinguishes the siege of Constantinople is the re-union of the ancient and modern artillery. The bullet and the battering-ram were directed against the same wall; nor had the discovery of gunpowder superseded the use of the liquid and unextinguishable fire."—Decline and Fall, &c, vol. xii. p. 213.

Note 18.
The dark-brow'd ranks are riven.

"After a conflict of two hours, the Greeks still maintained and preserved their advantage," says Gibbon. The strenuous exertions of the janizaries first turned the fortune of the day.

"Silent shall be the march: nor drum, nor trump,
Nor clash of arms, shall to the watchful foe
Our near approach betray: silent and soft,
As the pard's velvet foot on Lybia's sands,
Slow stealing with crouch'd shoulders on her prey."
Constantine Palæologus, Act iv.

"The march and labour of thousands" must, however, as Gibbon observes, "have inevitably produced a strange confusion of discordant clamours, which reached the ears of the watchmen on the towers."

Note 17.

Nor is the balmy air of dayspring torn
With battle-sounds, &c.

The assault of the city took place at day-break, and the Turks were strictly enjoined to advance in silence, which had also been commanded, on pain of death, during the preceding night. This circumstance is finely alluded to by Miss Baillie, in her tragedy of Constantine Palæologus:—

Note 16.
Yon dome, the lode-star of all eyes.

For a minute description of the marbles, jaspers, and porphyries, employed in the construction of St. Sophia, see The Decline and Fall, &c, vol. vii. p. 120.

Note 15.
Ye smiled on banquets of despair.

Many instances of such banquets, given and shared by persons resolved upon death, might be adduced from ancient history. That of Vibius Virius, at Capua, is amongst the most memorable.

in the streets at midnight; and also by the appearance of a gigantic spectre, who summons the devoted person by name.

Note 14.
Hath the fierce phantom, &c.

It is said to be a Greek superstition that the plague is announced by the heavy rolling of an invisible chariot, heard

Note 12.
Know'st thou the land, &c.

This and the next line are an almost literal translation from a beautiful song of Goethe's:

Kennst du das land, wo die zitronen blühn,
Mit dunkeln laub die gold orangen glühn? &c.

Note 2.
———Bring wine, bring odours, &c.

Huc vina, et unguenta, et nimium brevis
Flores amœnæ ferre jube rosæ.
Hor. lib. ii. od. 3.

Note 11.
Those men are strangers here.

Many of the adherents of Constantine, in his last noble stand for the liberties, or rather the honour, of a falling empire, were foreigners and chiefly Italians.

Constantinople had been fixed upon as the time for conveying the imperial bride to that city.

Note 10.
Thy Georgian bride, &c.

Constantine Palæologus was betrothed to a Georgian princess; and the very spring which witnessed the fall of

Note 9.

————Mohammed’s face
Kindles beneath their aspect, &c.

Mahomet II. was greatly addicted to the study of astrology. His calculations in this science led him to fix upon the morning of the 29th of May as the fortunate hour for a general attack upon the city.

Note 8.

————The snowy crown
Of far Olympus, &c.

Those who steer their westward course through the middle of the Propontis may at once descry the high lands of Thrace and Bithynia, and never lose sight of the lofty summit of Mount Olympus, covered with eternal snows.—Decline and Fall, &c. vol. iii. p. 8.

a blaze, exhibit to the spectator stationed in a valley surrounded by rocks, a magnificent, though imperfect circle of fire.—Notes to Kindersley's Specimens of Hindoo Literature.

Note 7.

As when the wind hath blown
O'er Indian groves, &c.

The summits of the lofty rocks in the Carnatic, particularly about the Ghauts, are sometimes covered with the bamboo tree, which grows in thick clumps, and is of such uncommon aridity, that in the sultry season of the year the friction occasioned by a strong dry wind will literally produce sparks of fire, which frequently setting the woods in

Note 6.

See Gibbon's animated description of the arrival of five Christian ships, with men and provisions, for the succour of the besieged, not many days before the fall of Constantinople.—Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, vol. xii. p. 215.

gods who rule over us and our enemies, especially ye gods of hell! I honour you, invoke you, and humbly entreat you to prosper the arms of the Romans, and to transfer all fear and terror from them to their enemies; and I do, for the safety of the Roman people, and their legions, devote myself, and with myself the army and auxiliaries of the enemy, to the infernal gods, and the goddess of the earth." Decius then, girding his robe around him, mounted his horse, and rode full speed into the thickest of the enemy's battalions. The Latins were, for a while, thunderstruck at this spectacle; but at length recovering themselves, they discharged a shower of darts, under which the consul fell.

Note 5.
The Roman cast his glittering mail away.

The following was the ceremony of consecration with which Decius devoted himself in battle. He was ordered by Valerius, the pontifex maximus, to quit his military habit, and put on the robe he wore in the senate. Valerius then covered his head with a veil; commanded him to put forth his hand under his robe to his chin, and, standing with both feet upon a javelin, to repeat these words: "O Janus, Jupiter, Mars, Romulus, Bellona, and ye Lares and Novensiles! All ye heroes who dwell in heaven, and all ye

Note 4.
With its long march of sceptred imagery.

An allusion to the Roman custom of carrying in procession, at the funerals of their great men, the images of their ancestors.

Note 3.
From the Seven Towers, &c.

The Castle of the Seven Towers is mentioned in the Byzantine history, as early as the sixth century of the Christian era, as an edifice which contributed materially to the defence of Constantinople; and it was the principal bulwark of the town on the coast of the Propontis, in the later periods of the empire. For a description of this building, see Pouqueville's Travels.

Note 23.
In the Comneni's halls—

The Comneni were amongst the most distinguished of the families who filled the Byzantine throne in the declining years of the eastern empire.

[1] 

And droughty man alights and roars for "Roman Purl."^[1]—[MS. D.]
—— for Punch or Purl.—[D.]

↑ 1. A festive liquor so called. Query why "Roman"? [Query if "Roman"? "'Purl Royal,' Canary wine with a dash of the tincture of wormwood" (Grose's Class. Dict.).]

[1]