Talk:There was an old woman lived under a hill

Clearing up confusion (and adding to it)

Ugh it has been such a struggle just trying to figure out which songs are "versions of the same song" and which ones are "different songs with the same title". It doesn't help that the most authoritative sources don't agree with each other, and it especially doesn't help that the Roud Folk Song Index has assinged three different numbers to the exact same text.

Anyway, here is a summary of what I've found and where I've found it.

The Old Woman Under the Hill ("Under the hill, Hi-ho-hum &c.")

This is clearly a different song from all the other ones on this page. I'm only including this song because until recently w:There Was an Old Woman Who Lived Under a Hill erroneously listed #797 as the Roud number of "And if she's not gone &c."

Origin: "Sung by my mother. She says that her mother taught it to her, and that she came from Ireland. Mother's maiden name was Rebecca Cassatt."—Mrs. W. E. Davis, Harrisburg, Pa., 1927. Quoted in Shoemaker (1931).

Records for Roud 797:

• RoudFS/S186464: Shoemaker, Mountain Minstrelsy of Pennsylvania [1] (1931), p. 303. This is the only record under #797 with the title "There was an old woman lived under a hill".

There was an old woman lived under a hill, And if she's not gone, &c.

This is the nursery rhyme described by w:There Was an Old Woman Who Lived Under a Hill. It is also the rhyme of which we have the most editions on enWS.

Roud has given various editions of the rhyme three different numbers:

• 1613 (i.e. "The Trooper Watering His Nag")
• 19682 (this seems to be a duplicate of 1613)
• 22154 (i.e. "Pillycock pillycock sate on a hill")

Most sources treat "Pillycock" as a variant of "And if she's not gone, &c.". Many, however, consider "And if she's not gone, &c." and "The Trooper Watering His Nag" to be different songs (e.g. Opie & Opie, in The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes [2], 1951). I have decided to split the versions page accordingly.

Origin: Halliwell, in Popular Rhymes and Nursery Tales [3] (1849), says that the oldest known version of this rhyme was "part of an old catch, printed in the Academy of Complements, ed. 1714, p. 108". I could not find a copy of this edition of the Academy of Complements online, but I see no reason to doubt this. (Note: this is not the edition being referred to.)

Records for Roud 1613:

• RoudFS/S163061: Opie & Opie, The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes [4] (1951), p. 432. Roud notes that "Ascription to 1613 tentative"

Records for Roud 19682:

• RoudFS/S538620: Stoddard, Songs for the Nursery [5] (1819), p. 11.
• RoudFS/S535089, RoudBS/B358536: Thomas, The New ABC [6] (1805)

Records for Roud 22154:

• RoudFS/S316648: Prideaux, Mother Goose's Melody [7] (1904 / 1791) p.24. This edition introduced additional lines to the rhyme.
• RoudFS/S316025: Halliwell, The Nursery Rhymes of England [8] (1843), p. 94.

The Trooper Watering His Nag ("Sing trolly lolly, &c.")

Sources seem to vary as to whether this is the same song as "And if she's not gone &c". Roud sometimes gives them the same number (1613), but Opie & Opie, in The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes [9] (1951), say that they are NOT the same song. I have decided to treat them as different songs.

Origins: the earliest known edition is D'Urfey, Pills to Purge Melancholy [10] (1719-20), p. 13.

Records for Roud 1613:

• RoudFS/S223997: D'Urfey, Pills to Purge Melancholy [11] (1719-20), p. 13.
• RoudFS/S366400, RoudBS/B114696: Baring-Gould, English Minstrelsie vol. 7 [12] (1895), p. 114.

There was a maid went to the Mill ("Sing trolly lolly, &c.")

I am giving this variant special attention for two reasons:

1. Roud gives an edition of this variant a unique Roud number (V30822), though I'm not sure why
2. The Traditional Tune Archive says that this is sometimes considered a separate song from "The Trooper Watering His Nag".

We don't have any editions of this variant on enWS currently, but I'd treat this as a variant of "The Trooper Watering His Nag".

Origins: most sources list w:A Jovial Crew (1652) as the origin of this variant.

Records for Roud 1613:

• RoudFS/S366532: Chappell, Popular Music of the Olden Time [13] (1859?), p. 594.

Records for Roud V30822:

• RoudBS/B114694: Scott, English Song Book (1926), p. 2.

Pillycock Pillycock

Most sources seem to agree that this is the same rhyme as "And if she's not gone &c." (e.g. Baring-Gould & Baring-Gould, The Annotated Mother Goose [14] (1967), p. 28.)

Origins: This rhyme is referenced in King Lear, so it is at least as old as 1608. The earliest publication as a nursery rhyme is in Ritson, Gammer Gurton's Garland [15] (1810), p. 36

Records for Roud 22154

• • RoudFS/S402303: Ritson, Gammer Gurton's Garland [16] (1810), p. 36

There was an old woman lived under a hill, She put a mouse into a bag, &c.

Most sources list this rhyme separately from "And if she's not gone, &c." The Roud numbering seems to conflate it with "And if she's not gone, &c." and/or "The Trooper Watering His Nag", but I think it clearly merits a separate versions page.

Origins: Opie & Opie list the earliest version as Mother Goose's Melody (c. 1765).

Records for Roud 1613:

• RoudFS/S316578: Prideaux, Mother Goose's Melody (1904 / 1791) [17] p. 23
• RoudFS/S402367: Ritson, Gammer Gurton's Garland [18] (1810), p. 25
• RoudFS/S402375: Opie & Opie, The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes [19] (1951), p. 433

Records for Roud 19682:

• RoudFS/S521371: Hall, Mother Goose's Melody or Sonnets for the Cradle [20] (1800), p. 23

—Beleg Tâl (talk) 02:33, 20 June 2024 (UTC)