Deposition of Ali Alexander, (Dec. 9, 2021)/11:12am

[11:12 a.m.]

Mr.   All right. Go back on the record now.

The time is 11:12 a.m.

BY  

Q So, Mr. Alexander, as we move on to the next sections, I do appreciate the color you're providing us. If you could just answer the question first and then provide the color afterwards, that would be greatly appreciated. And, again, we do appreciate your answers here today. But, yeah, just help this move along a little faster.

So let's go to January 6th now. All right? So, we've moved on from January 6th. For January 6th, Mr. Alexander, you understood that on January 6th Congress would certify the electoral college, making Mr. Joe Biden the country’s next President, correct? That's what was going to take place that day?

A No, that is not my understanding.

Q So why were you protesting on January 6th then? Why was that day special?

A Because I understand that there was going to be an attempt that would likely be successful in certifying the electoral college, but that the Constitution allows a protesting of that vote so long as it has a single member from each Chamber. The Democrats did this in 2017 and in 2001, and it was the first time, to my knowledge, that we Republicans were going to attempt the same thing.

And I had supported Senator Ted Cruz's proposal that we take 5 or 10 days to review the process, but I support Congress making a decision. But to say that it was—that it—that it was constitutionally required to go through on that day, that's not what the Constitution says.

Mr.   I'd also like you to know that Mr. Aguilar has joined the deposition.

BY  

Q So going back to what you said, if the certification of the electoral college was successful, Mr. Joe Biden would be sworn in as the next President. Is that correct?

A No, that's not correct. And I'm—I'm not a lawyer, but I've read the Constitution. And—but that's not—that's not a correct reading of the Constitution.

Q So we start on the morning of January 6th, right? And you tweet, "First official day of the rebellion." And this is exhibit 11, if you want to turn to that in your binder. What did you mean by this tweet?

A This graphic on page 11, I'm going to have to add some color here. This graphic on page 11 looks like a screenshot. I can't authenticate it because I don't have a Twitter account, and it looks like y'all did not retrieve this from Twitter. So you retrieved it from, you know, wherever.

What—if I sent this at 3:13 a.m., so before I was going to sleep on the 6th, then, you know, it's color. I'm a political personality. It's legally permissible speech. And it certainly, you know, would not be illegal activity that I would publicly be tweeting about prior to legally permitted events.

Q No one's saying that it's illegal. I just want to understand what you meant by it.

A Yeah, and I wish what I understood. But what I understand today is that that is a colorful language that you find on MSNBC or Fox News.

Q Do you recall tweeting, "First official day of the rebellion," on January 6th?

A No, I don't specifically. But this is believable.

Q Do you recall on January 5th at a rally leading chants of "victory or death"?

A This is a quote from a very famous political document called the Travis Letter. And! was quoting Alex Jones, quoting it because a lot of his audience was there the night of the 5th. I love history, and I'm a Texan. This is a very famous Texas political history moment at the Alamo.

America’s full of quotes like this that emphasize one’s values, that one values liberty more than having longevity as life as a slave. This is the history of Americans and American descendents of slaves, my ancestors. This echoes the Gadsden flag, quote, "Join Or Die," "Give me liberty or give me death," by Patrick Henry, the Magna Carta, Harriet Tubman's own words, Malcolm X, Martin Luther King, our Founding Fathers and Mothers. And it was said in this context. The Travis Letter is out of the Alamo. No one was talking about winning or overthrowing the Mexican Government, which is where this quote comes from. They just refuse to be prisoners.

I don't believe in unjustified violence. I went out of my way to talk about that or being an aggressor. I never believe in being the aggressor. No one was talking about a violent overthrow of the United States Government that night or day. Again, this quote is just a popular quote on Alex Jones' Infowars show. His audience made up, I think, about a third of our rallies—I talked about this internally—and would often use quotes from popular personalities.

So this was Alex—this was me quoting Alex Jones, quoting the Travis Letter from 1836. No one went there was committed to violence, or we wouldn't have had permits.

Q So let's go back to exhibit 26, page 270. You've already briefly discussed Mr. Thomas Van Flein, who we've established is—was Mr. Gosar’s chief of staff. And I'll give you a second to get to the page.

A Thank you. You say this was—

Q Page 270.

Mr. Kamenar. Can you find it?

Mr. McBride. Yes.

Mr. Kamenar. There it is.

Mr. McBride. The last page.

Mr. Alexander. Oh, it’s literally the last page. I'm sorry.

BY  

Q I'll direct you to, like, the top half of the page. And you're talking to Mr. Thomas Van Flein. It looks like at 5:44, you are asking: "I'm hearing there's a signing of the document or whatever."

What petition or document are you referring to here? And I'll give you a chance to read through it, but I just want to understand. What document is this?

A Okay. Hold on. I don't know. I honestly don't know. I mean, I wish there was more context here. The objections are getting signed. Signature instead of autopen. So certainly nothing on my end.

Q You were asking about it. That's why we were trying to figure out what document it was. But you do not recall?

A I do not recall. I don't recall.

Q Okay. On the same page, it looks like at 5:48, you asked Mr. Van Flein, "If We can send an email to the entire House Freedom Caucus, that they all need to be at The Ellipse. POTUS wants force."

How did you come to this understanding that POTUS wants force?

A Well, in reading this and knowing that this is a message that I would send, when you're talking about—when you're talking about, whether it's sports or events, you're talking about coming out in full force. You're talking about participation. You're not talking about violence, and you're not talking about Star Wars.

But—so, I think what I was attempting to do here was to get a chief of staff of a member to talk to other staff in getting their physical presence to the morning rally prior to, again, a joint session that was supposed to start at, you know, 1:00 or whatever the Constitution provides.

Q Okay. So I'm more interested, though, in the actual POTUS wants force. How did you know that President Trump wanted force?

A Well, I'd appreciate my words being repeated back to me with the context that I just gave them which is, you know, participation. So out in full force, you know, this is POTUS wants force. You know, you don't call the members of Congress to come out in forceful violence. That would be silly. Okay?

So if you're—if the question is actually, you know, how did I come to the understanding that the President wants as many Republican Members of Congress to watch the rally that he was going to speak at, I couldn't tell you. But it seems obvious in repeating it back to you.

Mr.   For the record, Ms. Cheney, the vice chair has joined this deposition.

BY  

Q So just to be clear, you didn't hear specifically from anyone on the campaign or the White House that President Trump wanted force from the House Freedom Caucus?

A Well, again, I just want to reiterate for the third time that force means coming out in full force. It's a common term used in events, in organizing, in sports, in all kinds of things—I say this with complete conviction—and that you don't call Members of Congress to come and watch a bunch of speeches and intend, you know, anything, you know, anything crazy, you know.

And so, I don't know how I came to this. If the committee could provide other text message that preceded this that talk about the same thing, then I'm happy to review those and then try to contextualize it. But I think, again, it's very obvious that the House Freedom Caucus was, like, the conservative wing of the conservative wing. And having them all at The Ellipse rally to hear the speakers that preceded the President was important to all of us. And think it's, you know, the logical course of action.

Q Yeah, so it's interesting because you're focusing on the word "force." I'm focusing on "POTUS wants." Help me understand that part. How do you know what POTUS wants?

A I'm sorry.

Q How do you know what POTUS wants?

A Because he tweeted as much.

Q Got it. Thank you.

So you went over this a little bit earlier. But so after you left the hotel, by the way, where were you staying when you were here for the January 6th event? What hotel were you staying at?

A I believe I was staying at the JW.

Q Okay. So walk us through the morning. How did you get to The Ellipse? What time did you leave? What time did you arrive? Just walk us through that.

A I don't know the times. The times would be better represented by the text message.

Q Approximately. Or just give us a lay of how your morning went.

A I really wish I could. That seems overly broad. You just showed me a text message, or you just showed me an alleged tweet that I sent at 3-something a.m. I didn't even have an awareness until now, again, if the tweet is real, that—that I went to bed after that time. It seems like I needed more sleep than that. So, so if I sought—the question just seems way too broad. And I'm happy to drill down on any of the specifics around the events that you guys are investigating.

Q Let's walk through it then. So you stayed at the JW Marriott here in Washington, D.C. Is that correct?

A Yes, sir.

Q You went to The Ellipse the morning of January 6th?

A Yes, sir.

Q Did you go anywhere between—in between going from the JW Marriott to The Ellipse?

A I don't believe so.

Q Okay. So when you arrived at The Ellipse, did anyone let you in? How did you get into the Ellipse?

A I provided for the committee maybe 15 or 20 minutes ago my best recollection of how I entered and what was happening at the VIP section, and I'd refer to that.

Q Did Ms. Wren escort you in, or were you able to still walk through the security?

A I do not remember Ms. Wren letting me in. And, again, in my retelling of my best recollection of the story, I had to actually retrieve our badges using my reputation alone. And then I believe I saw Caroline ultimately, you know, 20 or 30 minutes later, after we made it through Secret Service, metal detectors, through the swampy mud fields and then up to the VIP-seated section.

Q Okay. Did you have a security detail with you on January 6th?

A Yes.

Q Do you recall who was part of your security detail?

A Not specifically, but generally, it would have probably been multiple layers. I do know that the Oath Keepers provided me two gentlemen, and I do not recall their name. And I don't even know if those two gentlemen were assigned to me or my overall party. But I had multiple layers of security, and those were volunteers really.

I had a paid security, a gentleman, a security gentleman named Patrick. And I don't know his last name, but he’s an African immigrant. And—but, again, you know, I probably assigned him to somebody else. In these type of situations, you know, you welcome help from police officers and veterans and great Americans like that, first responders. But sometimes you also get paid security, too. So—

 . Can I jump in for one second?

 . Please.

BY  

Q A moment ago you said that some of your volunteer security detail was volunteers. Is that you saying that you did not pay those individuals, that they worked for free?

A I don't recall ever paying the Oath Keepers. And don't recall that being a part of any of their arrangement of how they, like, volunteered their services for security. Now I don't know if we provided them, like, hotel rooms or food or water or anything like that. But, you know, I've never written a check to the Oath Keepers to the best of my knowledge.

Q Who would know if you provided them with hotel, water, or food or any of the things you just listed?

A I wouldn't know. We—everybody was—everybody was volunteering. Everybody was doing the best that they can. If these text messages represent something, then I can work to verify that but.

Q No, no. I'm just saying a moment ago when you said, "I don't know if we would have provided," who was the "we"?

A We being Stop the Steal.

Q Okay. And you said you paid an individual named Patrick for security.

A Uh-huh.

Q Do you remember Patrick's last name?

A No, I don't.

Q Do you know how you paid him?

A No, I don't.

Q Do you know who would have known how he got paid?

A Unfortunately, no, I don't. You know, I have—I was—I was very—I don't want to say I was never alone. But to the best of my recollection, I didn't have a moment to be alone. And, so, I delegate tasks to people based off availability or expertise or a combination of both.

It's very likely, you know, he's a—he's, again, I believe he's an African immigrant, you know, specializes in security. And he's, you know, strong and doesn't talk too much. So, you know, I could see—I could see, you know—I just wouldn't know.

Q Well, what I'm trying to figure out is it sounds like you or your organization—and I'm sorry. I didn't realize you      

It sounds like you or your organization paid for a security detail, and I'm trying to figure out who would have been responsible for coordinating the payment of that?

A Yeah, and I just told you I—there are so many people in my nexus, both physically and assigned tasks, that—that, you know, it—I wouldn't know any specific person.

BY  

Q And we'll get back to security a little later.

So I want to keep moving through the day for January 6th. And I want to direct you back to exhibit 26 again, and we're going to be referring to exhibit 26 throughout today, specifically page 241. It's near the back, and I'll just read it out loud as you go there.

But at 10:02, Mr. Roger Stone texted you, "As I expected, no speaking spot. No VIP entrance for any of my people."

And you replied, "I understand the funder of today's event is not happy. I never thought it was real. Time to sue."

So as you read through it, I just—can you help me understand what role Mr. Stone might have played in planning the events on January 6th?

A Roger's not a planner. He's a speaker.

Q Okay.

A He's—I don't even know how old he is, but I think above 70.

Q Okay. Were you responsible for coordinating him as a speaker on January 6th?

A He had an aide coordinating all of his activities.

Q What organization was responsible for coordinating Mr. Roger Stone as a potential speaker? Was it Stop the Steal? Women for America First? The White House?

A I couldn't tell you. He's—he's a personality unto himself. And, like I said, he's internally booked. So he handles that within his own, you know, nexus.

 . Who was the aide you were referring to?

Mr. Alexander. Her name, I believe her name is Kristen. I've only met her once, and I couldn't even tell you her last name.

BY  

Q In this text you also say, "The funder is not happy." Who's the funder?

A I think you're mistaken. I didn't say that.

Q Okay. Who was your understanding of who the funder was for January 6th?

A I don't know that there was a singular funder of January 6th because I didn't deal with any of that, any of the funding for The Ellipse, you know, not like staging equipment or anything like that. And, you know, contemporaneously I don't know. But, you know, reporting, public reporting now, you know, points to a Florida-based woman. And that could have been who he was referring to.

Q And when you say, or when it said "time to sue," who are we talking about suing there?

A Probably Women for America First.

Q And what was going to be the basis of suing Women for America First?

A That we had folded our Lot 8 morning event into The Ellipse. And there was all this pretense that, you know, Roger Stone is the gentleman who came up with the phrase Stop the Steal. I have, you know, this gentleman's agreement with him that I have a perpetual use of the license. And—and they got up there and lied to the crowd and lied to the Nation and that we were deprived of participating in our other separate event so that they could fold us into this. It seemed like a claim to me that I wanted lawyers to look at.

Q When you say "fold us," who is "us"?

A The whole One Nation Under God Coalition that Stop the Steal was a part of.

Q Who's in charge of the One Nation Under God Coalition?

A Like many political functions and groups, you know, in this business, it's an impromptu coalition based off of a need. And you see this a lot around like the ObamaCare issue. Or, you know, on the left and on the right you'll—you know, we've had impromptu coalitions around, like, the estate tax, the death tax we call it.

So One Nation Under God is, like I said, Stop the Steal paid for all the staging and equipment. But because it wasn't exclusively political, and it was also religious and web were doing prayers and the blowing of the shofar and it was a very Judeo-Christian event, and that that was going to be the real focus. I even talked about changing hearts and minds.

So we were seeking a political legislative remedy from the outside. It was very spiritual thing, and so we had to call it One Nation Under God because there's a bunch of Christian groups that didn't fit into Stop the Steal. Some Christian groups did, but not all did. Some Jewish groups didn't fit in there, and we wanted their participation.

Q While you were at The Ellipse, did have you any interactions with Secret Service?

Mr.   Beyond the magnetometer-type stuff.

Mr. Alexander. Could—could we specify what interactions mean?

BY  

Q Did you talk, communicate with any Secret Service agents after getting into the magnetometer?

A Communicate. Verbally, I don't know.

Q You don't recall?

A I don't recall, you know, verbally communicating the way you're defining it to the Secret Service.

Q And, correct me if I'm wrong, but did your personal security detail go with you to The Ellipse?

A I don't believe so, to the best of my recollection—

Q Okay.

A —because, you know, as Secret Service was letting myself and Mr. Alex Jones out, we couldn't take everybody. And so, I think I sacrificed my security so that I could use his security.

Q Okay.

A And—and we were really close to not even being allowed to take his security. So I—that's why I say I don't think so. But that's to the best of my recollection. But it would be—I would be hard pressed to say yeah, my—you know, they were added to this train of people that Secret Service allowed through a special exit.

Q Did you receive any pins of any nature from Secret Service?

A No.

Q Okay.

BY  :

Q Just it so's clear, you were talking about exiting the event with your security?

A Exiting The Ellipse—

Q I know.

A —while the President was speaking.

Q I hear you.

Did you bring your security into the event with you to the event?

A I believe so. They—I believe so. Like I said, I usually have, like, different layers of, like—I won't call them aides—like helpers and security and I know I would have had to take some security with me in a golf cart to The Ellipse and they would have entered with me. But because I was running errands in and out, or I was shoving people to go into the Ellipse event while I handled drama, you know, at the VIP ticket table, you know, I couldn't nail it down, but it's likely.

BY  

Q Do you recall any of your security having any issues getting into the event through security?

A My security?

Q Uh-huh.

A A lot of people—

Q I mean yes.

A A lot of people had a lot of people had a lot of issues, and I worked to resolve some of those issues. But my security? None that—anybody who arrived with me got in.

Mr. Alexander. Okay. Before I move on to the next part of the day, do any of the members have any follow-up questions? Seeing no response from the members, did any counsel—

Ms. Lofgren. I don't.

Mr.   Oh, sorry. Ms. Lofgren?

Ms. Lofgren. I just wanted to say I don't.

Mr.   Okay. Thank you, Ms. Lofgren.

Do any counsel have any follow-up questions?

Mr.  . Just to be clear, Mr. Alexander, did anybody else accompany you to The Ellipse when you came over from the hotel that you remember, security aside?

Mr. Alexander. I don't know who all I took with me. I know that we had, like I said, a golf cart.

Mr.   Sure.

Mr. Alexander. And—and, you know, I just always—I always had, you know, rotating different helpers or aides with me. And so, you know, I couldn't—if I speculated on a name, it would be just pure speculation.

BY  :

Q So earlier you mentioned that when the President speaks, it's on, like, their own schedule. I'm paraphrasing. Like you can't control when the President speaks. Is that—am I capturing that properly?

A Yes. Or when he stops.

Q Right. So did you leave The Ellipse before President Trump had finished speaking?

A Yes. And that's, you know, been widely captured by media and attested to by myself.

Q And why did you leave before President Trump finished his speech?

A We left The Ellipse early because we were requested to by Ms. Wren and her aide—and/or her aide. And it was a whole process that we were aware could happen, and so it was happening. And I don't know if the process took 5 minutes or 15 minutes, because there's a lot of back and forth. The President's speaking. I'm sitting. We got 200 media behind us. How do you get up while the President's talking in a discreet way? And the answer is you can't.

And, so, we were requested that, because people were leaving the overflow, that there probably should be some leadership toward the Capitol, and that Alex Jones and myself should be the people to help to, you know, lead that overflow crowd that was just starting to leave.

Q And this was communicated to you from Ms. Wren?

A Or her aide.

Q Or her aide. Okay.

And do you know who Ms. Wren or her aide was receiving this request from?

A No, not specifically, no.

Q Did Ms. Wren escort you out of The Ellipse?

A She was part of—she was a part of—she was a part of the people who walked me and Alex Jones and whoever else we had with us out a special entrance, yeah, exit.

Q And when you left the special exit, where were you heading?

A Well, we needed to regroup. So we actually stopped for 5 minutes to regroup.

Q Where did you stop?

A We stopped right outside where we were let out at the fence. And then we—we—I think, some of Alex's cameramen met us, you know. So they had ran out the exit and ran around and met us, or something like that. And they were there to film us, and I'm actually very grateful that all of my actions were filmed so that my attention to nonviolence and to actually participate in deescalation was chronicled.

But we ended up stopping again at the Freedom Plaza type of area, and Alex gave an impromptu speech. And the goal of this was to have people, you know, what they call in media a B-roll shot, you know, walking behind him. And so—and I was using his security. So there I am, you know, stuck in the security bubble.

Q Just going back really quickly, do you know who Ms. Wren's aide was?

A I don't recall her name. She was a very nice person.

Q Okay. So it was a woman. That's what you recall?

A Yes.

Q Okay. And you said that Mr. Jones stopped and gave an impromptu speech. Where was the speech given?

A At Freedom Plaza, at the corner of, you know, what we refer to as Freedom Plaza.

BY  :

Q Did the Secret Service ever tell you before you left The Ellipse anything about you walking to the Capitol?

A I've already testified that I don't recall any verbal communications with the Secret Service.

Q With yourself. Did you hear them tell anyone else you were with or communicate with them, like Mr. Jones, about the march to the Capitol?

A Well, walked over to the Capitol. Did I overhear Secret Service talking? No. I mean, they're professionals. I don't hear their conversations.

Q You just used the word "walked" to the Capitol instead of "march." Is there a difference between those two words in your mind?

A I think I—you know, sometimes there is and sometimes there isn't. And I'm not assuming anything in what you're saying, but I definitely want to clarify what I intend. And, so, in the event space there can be. But in the colloquial space, no, there is no difference.

Q Okay. And on the website that your organization put up, it said, "March to the Capitol after The Ellipse event," right?

A Yeah.

Q Okay. Yeah is yes?

A I think so.

Q Yes. And so to your knowledge, based on what you observed on January 6th at The Ellipse, did you ever see Secret Service communicate with anyone in your group about your movement from The Ellipse to the Capitol?

A Secret Service escorted us out. And so, you know, you know, I don't want to get in word games. But, you know, there was, you know, there was a decision made. It had to go this way. The reason why I said I don't know why whether it took 5 minutes or 15 minutes for Alex Jones and myself to decide when to leave is because what I was told was happening is we were basically negotiating how many people could exit, you know, with Secret Service. And so, you know, that conversation was handled on the Trump world side.

Q So that's about the logistics of exiting The Ellipse?

A Yes.

Q Okay. Did you understand there to be any communication to you about the President's intention after he was done with his speech coming from either the President or Secret Service?

A The—

Q The President.

A The President's intention?

Q Correct. About whether to walk to the Capitol at that time.

A You'd have—you'd have to ask him.

Q So did you know anything at that time about whether he would be coming with you or coming up to the Capitol later?

A I'm not privy to any of the internal conversations that Trump had with Secret Service.

BY  :

Q This is actually a perfect segue. Can you go to page 170 on exhibit 26? And it's page 170. And this goes to   point about whether President Trump was going to march to the Capitol.

At 12:19 p.m. you ask Ms. Wren—so I'm assuming this is after you've left The Ellipse—if POTUS is walking and for her to give you an update every 5 minutes. So at 12:19 p.m. on January 6th, was it your understanding that President Trump was going to come to the Capitol?

A One, I really appreciate you pointing out this text. This is helpful. It's also helpful that I use the word "walking," and you characterized it as marching before you read out the quote.

And my understanding is informed by a lot of things, you know, my race, my faith, my profession. And professionally, I'm sorry to bore you guys, but professionally, in my interactions with observing Secret Service over the years, observing Democrat nominees and Republican nominees and Presidents is, something like that's just not allowed to happen.

But I do know that we live in interesting times. And if it were to happen, I would like an advance notice. And, again, I'm sorry. I saw the faces, but I'm sorry if my answer is weird. Trying to be helpful.

Q So based upon this text, you were asking Ms. Wren, because you presume she would know if President Trump was going to walk to the Capitol?

A She was physically at The Ellipse, and I wasn't.

Q All right. So when you left Freedom Plaza, did you start heading straight toward the Capitol complex?

A Can I note for the record? Just—well, no I'm sorry. What was your question?

Q When you left Freedom Plaza with Mr. Jones, did you start heading towards the Capitol complex?

A We started heading towards Lot 8 where we had a legally permitted event, that direction.

Q Before arriving at Lot 8 on the Capitol complex, were you aware that individuals had begun to breach the Capitol?

A What's the origin?

Q I'm asking. So as you're walking towards the Capitol complex, were you aware while you're walking that individuals had started to breach the Capitol grounds?

A These terms are very specific, and I take this issue very seriously. So I wasn't aware that anyone, and I'm still not aware, that anyone breached the Capitol at that time. I was aware that there was chaos, confusion, and mayhem that I did not like, did not approve of, and that we started in a sprint until Mr. Jones could not keep up and to try to deescalate the situation which is represented by these text message.

Q Approximately how many people were with you as you were walking to the Capitol?

A You know, I don't know. I was concerned my persons. I was concerned about getting there to deescalate. First we were getting news updates. Arizona, Mike Pence this, it was all political. And then first time I see, you know, a struggle between a law enforcement officer and an individual, I was like, okay, I need to get there as a human and stop whatever's happening because this is stupid. And so—so that's my understanding.

Q So is it fair to say that there was a large crowd of people around you all as you and Mr. Jones were going to the Capitol?

A If you could be specific.

Q Just give me an order of magnitude. Give me an order of magnitude. Was it 100 people? Was it 200 people? Was it two people? How many folks were around you as you were walking to the Capitol?

A I'm not sure, but that's probably captured better on video than any verbal testimony I could give here today.

Q And you were saying that you were trying to get to the Capitol complex to deescalate. Can you help me understand that assertion with the fact that you were walking to the Capitol, chanting things such as "Stop the Steal"? So help me understand. Like you're getting to deescalate, yet you're leading the crowd in a chant of "Stop the Steal."

A Stop the Steal is a legally permitted, First Amendment chant in the same way that Black Lives Matter is, in the same way that so many other political issues are.

And I just want to say I kind of—I kind of resent, kind of offended by the, you know, the implication that you can't yell, "Stop the Steal." This was a movement that had 500 events, and all were peaceful. And yelling, "Stop the Steal," is about election integrity. And yelling, "Stop the Steal," even when we did the Jericho March with the Christians, before a broader, you know, theft in a spiritual sense. And you'll see her 12:56, I said we are deescalating. Before this, I talked about deescalating.

So my—so by chanting political phrases, we are gathering people to us. It is a tool of rhetoric and of speakers to use to get attention so that we can then move people where they belong.

Q So once you arrive at the Capitol complex, what did you observe?

A If you could be specific, it seems overbroad to me.

Q Once you get to the Capitol, what do you see?

A I see people.

Q What are those people doing?

A Some people are filming. Some people are walking. You know, there's—there's—the crowd gets dense. And, again, I can't see the conflict, but I already known about it minutes prior, whatever, from Twitter or a text message.

Q So when you got to the Capitol, did you see any of this conflict that you just mentioned? Did you see it—

A No, I actually just said I didn't see it because the crowd was so dense toward the fronts.

Q Got it.

A But they were in a spot they shouldn't have been in. I saw no barricades. I saw no police officers. And I were like—and I was, like, what the hell are people doing on the inauguration side? We hadn't been there in December. We hadn't been there in November. Stop the Steal had never been on the inauguration side. So who directed these people? Who pushed these people here? Who let these people in? Where were the barricades? Those were the first questions that popped in my head when I'm observing this dense situation in the context of a text message that I received about conflict.

Q So going back to exhibit 26 on page 170, you there? I just want to make sure you're there.

A Yes, sir.

Q Ms. Wren says to you, "I think you should leave. This will come down on you hard." Help us understand why this would come down on you hard.

A I was the guy who started Stop the Steal as a protest movement, which is separate from people chanting it, which is separate than the origin of the phrase. So I led an organization, and she—it looks like out of concern that the media would characterize what happened there prior to me getting there as my fault and other activists' fault. But I, you know, because this is a text message from one person to another, I think she's talking about, like, it's going to be blamed on Trump. It's going to be blamed on everybody. I'm concerned about you. You know, you should leave. This looks like it's escalating.

And I really want to point this out for the record. This is extremely important. I'm on the ground. Most of the time my cell phone signal is jammed. I am less aware of the events that are going on than people who are watching TV and getting detailed views of what's going on.

 

BY  :

Q Staying on exhibit 26, if we could go to page 242—and we're just trying to get a better understanding of the events on that day by using these text messages.

A I can appreciate that.

Q So page 242, you text Mr. Thomas Van Flein, who we've already established is Mr. Gosar's chief of staff. "I think you and your staff should maybe leave. This is hell out here." Why did you think Mr. Gosar's staff should leave?

A For the same reason that Caroline Wren thought I should leave. Well, she thought I should leave for my safety, and because, you know, people would try to blame me and other activists and the President. But I was very concerned, again, with these text messages that I got that were either tweets or pictures of conflict. I had never seen anything like that. I'd never seen anything like that. People were scaling the wall like Spiderman. I've never seen anything like that. Nothing like that's ever happened at a Stop the Steal rally, still to this day.

And so I was very concerned about my friend. I knew a lot of people in Congress. I wouldn't want them hurt. So I said I think you and your staff should maybe leave. Now in retrospect that's stupid because where were they going to go? But remember I'm seeing one picture, one tweet. I think it's happening on one side, a side that no one's authorized to be on. And I'm just, like, I'm just thinking about lives and people. I'm not thinking about my event. My event's already ruined. I can't have it. I'm concerned about people.

Q So you thought Mr. Gosar and Mr. Gosar's staff was in danger?

A I thought that they could potentially be in danger at some point if this escalated. I was, like, there's no way this escalates because surely police will put whatever's happening down or whatever. I never got close enough to see what—so, you know, these iconic pictures we see now, I didn't see any of that. But I was, like, if it goes there, if that's actually happening, if people—if what people are saying is true, then, you know, people need to get the heck out of there.

Q So you just are describing the environment of what you were seeing on the ground.

A As best as I can.

Q As you recall, and I appreciate that. I appreciate it.

Around this time do you recall tweeting, "#occupyDC. Remain peaceful in rally. Sources are telling me we're going to try to use two hours per State."

A No, not around that time. In fact, that happened prior.

Q Okay.

A And so we were talking about—we were talking about Senator Ted Cruz and Congressman Paul Gosar and, like, Jody Hice and a couple of others were going to protest Arizona and Georgia and some other States. And what was being communicated to me was that what were the legal legislative rules for this process. Again, this actually—this actually proves that I'm participating in the legislative process, and that I don't desire violence and—but this happened prior.

Q Okay.

A You know, that type of text message would have happened prior to any of this conflict stuff. And Occupy D.C., just for the record, is a reference to a popular far-left, anarcho-left movement in which people set up tents in D.C. and Lafayette Park and they did it in New York and stuff like that. It was legally permissible.

Q So when you get there on the ground, do you recall, you and Mr. Alex Jones directing individuals to the other side the Capitol, to the east side the Capitol?

A What I recall was seeing, seeing it and being shocked, saying we need to deescalate this—this is in the text messages, and it's verbally on video—and then climbing on a wet stack of metal chairs in which I could have fallen and injured myself, but it was more important to get the outskirts of the crowd. These people were not on the plaza, and they weren't on the building. These people were in a legally permissible area where there was not an event happening.

And we started chanting. We started yelling. We tried all types of tools that speakers use to get attention to say there's no event here. There's no event on the inauguration side. And so, these people were either new to Washington, D.C., new to the event, or had no idea about the Lot 8 event.

And my worst fears about The Ellipse event had happened. It's, like, people look at the scaffolding and they think there's going to be an event here. So I was, like, Okay. This is a simple mistake. Why don't we try to remedy it? Meanwhile there's—there's—there's tear gas in the air.

And I'm, like, okay. We are officially exiting this. We've got as many people as we can get with a megaphone. We need to move them away from the inauguration side. Don't defile the inauguration side. Don't be a part of scaffolding that could fall and hurt people. I was very concerned the scaffolding was going to fall and collapse on people.

Q On exhibit 26, can you go to page 256, please? And this is going to be around 2:34 at the time. There's an STS Patriots group. I'm assuming STS Patriots stands for Stop the Steal Patriots.

A Yes, sir.

Q And you say in one of these group chats, "Please let me know if anyone gets arrested. Civil War is," and then there's, like, a blank after that.

A What time is this at?

Q 2:56 or 2:34, I mean, 2:34, page 256.

A Oh I'm reading here "please also have check-in times with each other. So this is me telling people to make sure that they're safe. I can't possibly text everybody everyone. Everyone needs to make sure that everyone's safe.

There was, in addition to the conflict that happened at the Capitol, which was inappropriate, there were, at night, there were activists in this group called Antifa that used totalitarian force to back up their ideas. And they would beat up. You know, this is in all the D.C. police reports. So at our events at night, we frequently told people stay inside because you're in danger. So I'm saying have check-in times with each other, and then and let me know if anyone gets arrested. There should have been a period there. And civil war is like near.

I'm very concerned that our Nation is irreparably divided. And you can see this not just, like, in what I'm talking about, because I'm not advocating a civil war. I haven't even advocated what's called a national divorce. You can find that in Newsweek on the left. You can find people talking about it on the right. Twitter CEO Jack Dorsey has tweeted an article about this. This is something a lot of intellectuals talk about, and I'm very concerned.

When you watch what you watched at the Capitol happen, you know, I can understand why Democrats say you guys are causing a Civil War. And I understand why Republicans are saying you guys are causing a Civil War. All I'm concerned about is that that threatens to break apart the Nation that I love and that I've worked—I'm fighting for elections, which inherently means I'm opposed to war.

Q Right above that, right above that text where you say civil war—and we now understand you say is near—you say—

A I think. I think. I think.

Q You think. Right.

A Yeah.

Q You think. Thank you for clarifying.

A I think there would have been an emoji or something that—

Q Right.

A —meant near or whatever.

Q Thank you for clarifying.

You say, "And do not text message each other. Start a Signal group." So did you use Signal with the STS Patriots?

A I don't know that we ever started one. This was me just giving advice to people, and Signal is a popular app used by politicos and government officials and members of Congress that are, you know, present here, I assume. So it's kind of a standard app. And I just did not think that it was good for people to willy-nilly be texting each other with all of the campaign to frame people and violate our privacy rights.

Q I don't recall in your production. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Did we get any Signal chats you from?

A I provided one with Charlie Kirk. They auto-disappeared. That's like a data retention policy. So I don't—in response to the committee's investigation on the Capitol attack, and then as you guys widened it, in my opinion, to cover legally permissible events that I wanted to cooperate with this committee about like January 5th, I don't recall having any in my possession from Signal. Most of what I did was verbal. Some of what I did is in text message.

And you can—well, you can't. But if you were to ask Google, you know, for my email activity prior to Stop the Steal, it would be 10 times more, because I was just that busy. So I didn't really have time for, you know.

Q So staying in exhibit 26, can you now go to page 238? And on the bottom half of the page, it appears that you're texting Ms. Kimberly Fletcher.

A Yeah.

Q So at 2:38, or as it's here 1438. Sorry. I am just translating the 24-hour clock there. It looks like you say, "POTUS is not ignorant of what his words will do. Wish it didn't happen, but understand the people and I won't denounce them." So reading this text, is it fair to say that President Trump's words were influential to his supporters?

A The short answer is no, because we have a wise Supreme Court that came out with a case called Brandenburg v. Ohio which helped us, you know—and I say "us" as in human civilization—establish jurisprudence about, you know, what is a tool of rhetoric, and then what is incitement. And the Supreme Court, you know, tried to help guide us on that philosophical journey.

What I will tell you about this text is, this text was sent when I didn't know some of the worst that had happened. So I'm specifically referencing, you know, aggressive stuff that was, you know, not good, not good at all. Trespassing stuff, not good at all. Being on the scaffolding, stupid, stupid and reckless.

But I will tell you that, you know, no one has the authority outside of a judge or a jury to determine the answer to your question. I certainly don't. But because this text can be used against what—what did I mean, is I was hurt. I was hurt. I was frustrated. And, you know, at one point, what I want to point out is, if you scroll up on those text messages, you know, it's almost like what happened? Ali, this is a madhouse.

And I'm getting this flurry of text message that spontaneous come in because of the jammers that were put up. And I'm thinking, like, like, I can't possibly be responsible for tens of thousands of folks. Why are you texting me? I'm busy trying to remove bystanders from becoming protestors or protestors becoming agitators. That's how I'm thinking. I'm trying to triage people in my brain of who can I save, because nobody needs to be hit with tear gas. Nobody needs to be hit at all.

And So I was very frustrated, very mad. And I'm of the opinion that the President's words without the context of where to go was not helpful. And I've said as much, and I don't care who that pisses off. But, you know, as someone who's done professional events, that's, you know, the agreement should have been honored and we should have had the speeches talking about Lot 8.

Q What people were you not going to denounce in this text?

A Excuse me?

Q What people were you not going to denounce?

A Okay. I'm really excited to take an opportunity to clarify what I meant, because there is a viral video that—where it shows me on top of 101 Constitution Avenue. And I do a video, and I said I don't denounce this. I don't disavow this.People want me to disavow this. And this is kind of a tool of rhetoric and debate that I got from my late friend, Andrew Breitbart. Apologize for what, you know, he said. Apologize for what? And that was to say that you don't owe your enemies an apology. And then my Christian doctrine is, like, but you owe them something when you've done something wrong.

So, first off, I'd like to say I've done nothing wrong. And I did nothing wrong. So asking me to disavow the actions of other adults would be silly. People who didn't attend Lot 8, would be silly. People who disrupted my event from taking place, me to denounce them, that would seem silly.

And then what—the video's cut off but it's gone viral, millions of views, and people who think that I was saying I support the violence. The video says that I don't. It says, obviously, I denounce the people inside and the agitators. And I still have that position. I've said that we should prosecute the violent actors. I've said it in my opening. I've said it always, but people want to conflate it.

And so what I'm saying here in this text message, I won't denounce them, I'm talking about the people on the ground. I'm not talking about the people in the building. I'm not talking about people who punch cops. I'm not talking about any unjustified violence. There's no evidence. There's no evidence that I've supported violence. There's no text message where I'm celebrating injured people. There's not a single text message that has that.

Mr.   I'd just like to note for the record that Ms. Cheney and Ms. Lofgren and Mr. Schiff have left the deposition, and the only remaining members are Mr. Kinzinger and Mr. Aguilar.

BY  

Q I believe in the afternoon of January 6th you tweeted, and I quote, "Democrats and media ended the republic and that people responded. Welcome to," in quotes, "duh." What did you mean? Please explain this tweet for us.

A What exhibit is this?

Q It's exhibit 17 actually. Go to exhibit 17, and I'll actually narrow my question here.

A Thank you.

Q When you say that people responded, what are they responding to?

A Well, again, I have to say this for the record for anything that's presented to me that either I didn't authenticate, or was does not look like it was pulled from Twitter itself. So this, again, assuming that this is true and out of great respect for the committee, Democrats and media ended the republic. So this is my truly held belief that—and it was 47 percent of America at the time believed that there were election irregularities. Right now 80-something percent, 80-plus-something percent of Republicans still believe that. And we're not going to stop believe that because there's evidence for some.

And I said, you know, people responded. And that's unfortunate. This is not a value-based judgment. This is not one. This is me making some analysis, and it's not good. It's not healthy for you. It's not healthy for me. It's not healthy for either of our parties. And I think that this is a failing of Democrat Party that compromised our election itself, and I think this is a failing of the media which is supposed to speak truth to power, and fight for transparency in elections.

I want to state this: Stop the Steal was not a Trump movement, and that's why I really resent this whole March for Trump stuff and Trump 45 stuff and all of that. That's silly to me. Okay? We support fair elections and transparent counting. We believe that there are election irregularities, and we believe those irregularities favor Joe Biden, who's the current President of the United States.

So that's our stance, and that better describes and adds context to this tweet.

Mr. Kamenar. Excuse me. I didn't mean to interrupt. Is there a date and time of this exhibit?

Mr.   Not on the exhibit, no.

Mr. Kamenar. Is there any reason why? We're talking about chronology and so forth. I just thought it might help the witness if he had a date and time.

Mr.   It's not in the exhibit, and he provided the analysis that weneeded for this tweet.

Mr. Kamenar. Okay.

Mr. Alexander. Okay. Can I—I'd like to clarify on the record then. I thought you just reported that this was a January 6th tweet.

BY  

Q It is.

A And I'm glad that -- I'm glad that I clarified at the beginning of my tweet, assuming that this is true, okay. But if this was in response to something else, because we're having all kinds of small victories or small defeats at the States, then that's whatever. But, you know, if I was writing this tweet today, that's, you know, what it would mean.

Q And with this tweet, when you're saying, "duh," are you saying that, you know, the response you just described is the natural and obvious result to those alleged election irregularities that you described?

A No, not necessarily.

Q So you talked about how you went to I believe you said 101 Constitution Avenue. Is that where you went after you left the Capitol complex grounds?

A That's where I believe I went. I've since gathered the address from trying to get evidence gathered for y'all. So I'm trying to best represent where I was.

Q Who did you leave with?

A I left with Mr. Jones and his security and camera staff, and if there were other people with us. Michael Coudrey was with me. If there's other people, I don't recall.

Q And when you say you were talking about the video of you making the speech about you don't disavow this, you don't denounce this, who recorded that video of you?

A I don't know.

Q You don't recall?

A No. I mean, it could—you know, it could have been Michael. It wouldn't have been Alex, you know. It could have been staff. It could have been security. I was friendly—those guys were protecting me. So I was friendly with everybody. And, obviously, I didn't film it myself.

I'll be honest. Before I had to gather this evidence, my recollection was actually that I shot my own video. And so that's how, you know, in reviewing this evidence, weird it is. And to be deplatformed and not have access to any of that stuff makes me you know, I'm acting in good faith. I'm cooperating and acting in good faith.

Q So going back to exhibit 26—and I'd like to direct you to page to page 236.

Sorry. Let's go back to the east side of the Capitol. Sorry. When you got to the east side the Capitol, did you give another speech? Or did you and Alex Jones give another speech?

A The east side of the Capitol.

BY  

Q How about do you just remember, Mr. Alexander, when you were on the pallet, talking next to the stairs? You all left and went to another area on the Capitol. Do you remember that? And can you just walk us through that movement?

A I'm actually more confused.

Q Remember with the—you were talking about statement that, you know, when you climbed up whatever you called it, at risk to your own personal safety?

A Yeah. There were chairs.

Q Right. Sorry. And then you left from there and went somewhere else. Do you remember where you went?

A Yes.

Q Okay. Where did you go?

A I believe, again—

Q Without—just the way, what you remember, yeah.

Q Well in consultation with my attorneys and, again, remember I was stupid. I missed—I was confusing—I was confusing,— I believe, south with east and north with west. And this is reflected in these text message, including a text message that I ended up sending to all kinds of supporters.

So we were walking, I believe, on the south side. We ran into an officer who was, you know, politely but very annoyed, directing people to the east side. And we asked him several times how can we help. What can we do? And he didn't want to engage in that conversation. He's, like, just go to the east side. Just go to the east side.

So we, of course, are walking towards the direction of Lot 8. When you're walking—when you're walking, you know, again from The Ellipse to Freedom Plaza, to the west, past the north I hope I didn't just previously just say south—past the north.

Q We get it. That's fine.

A And then what's directly in front of you, you think it's Lot 8, but it's actually, I believe, Lot 9. But if somebody showed me a map, we cube more accurate about it. What we see then is about six or seven officers, I believe, on the steps closest to us. So this is hard northeast of the Capitol building. We walk up to them, engage them.

And, again, we're—we're escalating our deescalation efforts, myself and Alex Jones and Owen Shroyer and thinking, well, we'll be recognized by part of this crowd. These aren't all our supporter, but a lot of them are. And we engage with those officers. Eventually they tell us, you know, okay. Try to get those people down if you can. We don't think you can. That's my best recollection of that.

We go up the steps of, like, I guess the south or, no, the northwest side. And—and we're doing chants that is common to Alex Jones' audience to get people's attention because there's music blaring. And, again, I'm in the state of, you know, I've worked this—I'm working through it, you know, with a therapist and stuff like that. But I'm in a state of, like, shock. Like, like, why are there vehicles on the Capitol Plaza? The cops told us there wouldn't be any vehicles. Why are there vehicles? Why is there loud music playing? Who the hell has a speaker that loud? Because on the Capitol, you're only allowed wound-up speaker, and this speaker's loud and it's playing, like, heavy metal music. It seems like something out of, like, Abu Ghraib.

I mean, it's just—it was just a, frankly, bizarre situation. And there's all these people who some of them think that that's where the rally is, and then other people who are just bystanders. And then some idiots, some real idiots, you know, some bad, nefarious people, I guess, you know, they're up at the front. But I don't see them. I never physically saw these people.

And then, so, we spend, I don't know, 5 to 15 minutes—I don't think it's 15—but 5 to 15 minutes getting people's attention so we can shove them down. This loudspeaker and these vehicles are interrupting our ability to take command of the crowd where we cannot take command of crowd and physically grabbing people and shoving them down the stairs. Okay. That's how desperate I was to deescalate this situation, me, Alex Jones and Owen Shroyer, all deescalating.

And—and, so, then we—so then we exit. And we start talking to people on, like, Lots 10, 11, 9, and 8 and trying—what happened before we got here? Were you here? And what we come—came to learn is that most of those people had never attended The Ellipse rally and heard Trump's speech. Most of those people, you know, certainly weren't at Lot 8.

All the people at Lot 8 were peaceful. Lot 8 never erupted into violence. Lot 8 maybe had, like, 10 people on it. But those people, you know, had gotten my tweets.

So maybe I affected 10 people, and that was kind of defeating. And ultimately I was, like, I don't want people to think I'm condoning this. And I don't want people to be attracted here and then accidentally get swept up in all of this. Mob psychology's a real thing.