Deposition of Ali Alexander, (Dec. 9, 2021)/1:10pm
[1:10 p.m.]
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Q Mr. Alexander, I just want to go back before we move on to the next topic. And before we start, I would like to announce that no members are on. And that Mr. left the deposition as well.
Mr. Kamenar. No members?
Mr. No members. That's correct.
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Q Can you go to Exhibit 26, page 238 again. The text messages with Ms. Kimberly Fletcher?
A I'm sorry. What page is that?
Q It's going to be 238.
A 238?
Q That's correct. So on the bottom half of the page where you say, "POTUS is not ignorant of what words would do." Just very clearly explain to us what do you mean by what his words would do?
Mr. Kamenar. That has been asked and answered.
Mr. What do you mean by—what would his word do?
Mr. Kamenar. I mean, if you want to speculate.
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Q You're saying it. I am just asking what you mean by your words.
A Yeah, I've already been asked this question and given the record an answer and I don't want to give a contrary answer.
QSo when you—Mr. Alexander, I'm going to ask you the question again.
A Well, this is the fourth time you've asked me, but I already have an answer on the record an hour ago. And I would feel very uncomfortable exposing myself to that legal liability. I am under oath. I acknowledge that I'm under oath. And I had to recontextualize it here 11 months later for y'all in my first answer. So the fourth one wouldn't—
Q So he was not ignorant that his words would lead to the rioters attacking the Capitol?
A , you know, a fifth time. I would really just like to stick with my first answer, if you're okay with that.
Q And as the rioters are attacking the Capitol, you're not going to denounce them? Is that what you're saying to Ms. Fletcher?
A On that separate text message you've already asked me that, too. And I actually remember said that I denounced all the people who performed vandalism, all of the people who performed violence. I didn't denounce the people who were on the grass and peacefully assembled. And a lot of people wanted to lump them in together. And I just don't believe that that is equal treatment under the law. I am a little civil libertarian on some of those issues. I believe that each individual should, you know, have their fair day in court. And to denounce everybody and lump them in with people who committed violent acts is not fair.
Q So show me where you're saying I denounce the people that are going in and vandalizing—why would it make sense to denounce people who are not breaching the Capitol?
A That happens in politics all the time—
Q I'm trying—
A I am really glad, and I appreciate the stenographer letting me finish my answer. But, you know, if I can go without interruptions, , because I didn't even get a sentence in. This is the third time you and I are talking about this denouncement, and I've described it here 11 months later. And I have a video of me that you guys have denouncing violent people. And I told you, you know, you work in government, I work in politics. A lot of people think they are the same, but they are not. And there is a game in media and politics that—a denouncing game where people try to associate you with people that you're not associated with. And that's not fair. It happened to Barack Obama, it's happened to Donald Trump, and I was afraid of it happening to me. And guess what? It has happened to me. I am not associated with the Capitol attackers.
Q So at this moment while the rioters are attacking the Capitol, you're thinking about the media?
A No. Because as I said in a previous answer, I was on the ground, I didn't get to watch CNN like you. I didn't get to watch tweets or Twitter or anything like that. And from what I saw was chaos. What I saw was tear gas. I didn't watch anyone punch anyone. I was afraid that it was going to escalate. And so, what I was worried about is that blame would be laid at the feet of Republicans who believe in election integrity and not Capitol attackers. Whether they are Democrats or Republicans, they should have their day in court, a fair day in court. But lumping everybody together, whether it is me or two other Americans, it is not right, and not fair, and it doesn't speak good of our system.
Q So going back to your security, while were you planning the wild protest event at the Capitol on January 6th, did you have any security concerns?
A I'm a public figure and I walk around—even coming to this hearing, I had great security concerns. And us trying to get here on time, we actually approached four times, and it was hard for us to get through the perimeter because y'all had a security concern. So I have general security concerns wherever I go.
Q So what were your security concerns while were you planning the wild protest event at the Capitol?
A I wouldn't—I think general event security issues, principally is that antifa and some other fringe left-wing Socialists, Communist, Marxists, and other kind of gangs get away with violence unprosecuted here. I've seen my face on a target map. I've been called a nigger. I have been called everything by the left wing. And to this day, you can go to Twitter right now and find death threats about me.
And so when I tried to get security, I got paid security to take on the liability of confronting anyone if they confront me, self-defense only, but volunteer veterans or police officers, first responders are mostly there to keep a perimeter around equipment.
Q Did you conduct a threat analysis while you're preparing the security for the wild protest?
A Me personally?
Q Yeah. As you're planning to for the event, did your Stop the Steal or anyone engaged with planning this event, did you conduct a threat analysis?
A I trust other people to do stuff like that. I myself am not qualified to do a threat analysis. I've heard of this term, and I've, you know, it has probably been said to me in passing or something like that. But, you know, an intelligent assessment would require the time to be able do it. And I lack the time to collect anything of what was happening on the ground or interface with the police directly myself. I hire people, or have people delegated to that who have that expertise.
Q Did you hire someone to conduct a threat analysis for your event?
A I don't recall either way.
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Q Real quick, sitting here today, can you remember anyone on behalf of or associated with the Stop the Steal or One Nation Under God event conducting any kind of threat analysis for that rally?
A What I recall is trusting the U.S. Capitol Police to communicate to us what we needed to do, what they would do, and any, any concerns. And the permitting process is an open process until the day of. And so I hired people to interface with the U.S. Capitol Police and all other government agencies. And they communicated with them on a regular basis. And sometimes, in our previous events, I don't recall January 6th receiving them, but sometimes if police want to pass something through us, we would get that. But I—I don't really recall today anything. But the process is super elaborate, and security is not my primary expertise.
Q Outside of the interaction with the Capitol Police, do you know of anyone at Stop the Steal or One Nation Under God who conducted a threat analysis for that event?
A I am the only officer, you know, at Stop the Steal, I'm a one-man shop, and I have volunteers that do work with me and stuff like that. But, and that Stop the Steal the organization, not Stop the Steal the hashtag, not Stop the Steal when someone is chanting "stop the steal," not "stop the steal" that originated in 2016 with Roger Stone.
My Stop the Steal is a protest movement. It has 500 peaceful rallies in 50 States under its belt, and January 6th was not one of ours. So this seems like a specific term, and if you guys reference something, I can tell you if I recognize something or not, but it is not triggering anything.
Q If you don't know the term, then you can say I'm not aware of any threat analysis being conducted on that day on behalf of Stop the Steal.
A Today I do not. You know, I do not recall—I do not recall—I do not recall, you know, like, paying $50,000 for a threat analysis or anything like that. That's what it sounds like to me, like this fancy—
Q I'm not trying to make it complicated because if you don't know the term, that would suggest that you were not aware of a threat analysis. I'm literally just asking, are you aware of any threat analysis being conducted for Stop the Steal?
A Today, right now, I am not aware.
Q That's it. And I'm not trying to trick you. I think you get what I'm asking, so I appreciate the answer.
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Q Can you got to Exhibit 14, please, Mr. Alexander? This is a text message exchange between you and Mr. Stephen Brown. Who is Mr. Brown?
A Mr. Brown is a—I think he's like a preferred vendor with the National Park Service or something like that. He has some special designation with—there's like three or four different groups that run permits around D.C., depending on what type of land it is. And I met him during the December 12th event, I think it was, the Jericho march. And he was—I joined in on that event. I endorsed that event. And it was a Christian event. And he, I thought, did an excellent job of, like, the staging and some of that. And there was a lot of pressure. And so he was the guy that I knew who I could hire to do permitting and tell me, you know, point me in the right direction, and just handle all of that stuff. So we hired him for Lot 8.
Q So Stop the Steal hired Mr. Brown to help organize?
A I hired him.
Q You hired him?
A Yes.
Q Thank you. Okay.
So just to orient the room, this is text messages from Mr. Brown's standpoint, so it is to Mr. Alexander, that's why you see to Ali Alexandra, spelled wrong at the top.
Mr. Kamenar. What—okay.
Mr. McBride. These are from Brown to Ali.
Mr. Kamenar. Where is Brown's name?
Mr. McBride. It is not here, just—
Mr. When you text from your phone, it doesn't say your name on it. So it would not say his name on here. It just says to Mr. Ali Alexandra on here, but he means Ali Alexander.
Mr. Kamenar. And this is from Brown's phone?
Mr. Correct.
Mr. Kamenar. Okay. And the reason you know that is—
Mr. We know that.
Mr. Kamenar. Don't try to find the name. Sorry. Go ahead.
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Q So in the middle of this page it looks like a message from Mr. Brown to you. Mr. Alexander, it says, "Do you still want Stewart to provide you with two protection detail officers?" Who is Stewart in this text?
A If this text message exchange is accurate and—then I would say—then I would have to speculate that Stewart, is Stewart Rhodes from that veterans group.
Q Is he—he veterans group, is that the Oath Keepers?
A Uh-huh.
Q And how do you know Mr. Rhodes?
A Well, this text message that you just pointed out is showing that I am not talking to Mr. Rhodes about this, that Stephen's handling it for me, which sounds like me. And I met—I met—let me see, I actually have—I think I have some details. I think I met Stewart Rhodes in Atlanta. We had an Atlanta protest and Stewart Rhodes showed up. Someone introduced us. And he said, Hey, wherever you guys go across the country, we can provide veterans that are clean. And they actually, you know, were, like, we don't—we don't protect White nationalists, we don't do this, we don't do this. We are just like here to help patriots like you. And, so, like I mentioned earlier, I believe I had two Oath Keepers with me or my party at the Ellipse event. And so, this text message seems to line up with that.
Q So when you were talking about the Oath Keepers, the veterans group is a term we use, it sounds like they were pretty professional to work with in your experiences in Atlanta, and then moving on through January 6th?
A In—let's see. I worked with them in Atlanta. I don't know if we worked with them in December or not at the Jericho march. But again, was an even I partnered on. I didn't really run the whole thing. And so, maybe that's why Stephen is handling the exchange because he worked with them more. That's what I was told about Oath Keepers is they are a veterans group. And, you know, I've seen con I've seen other media reporting characterizing them as other things or whatever, but January 6th, like I said, I used two of them. I don't know if I just answered your question or not.
Q No. Did you consider them professional from your experiences with them in Atlanta?
A In Atlanta they were professional. And I barely had any—I didn't have any direct interaction really, so they were on the perimeter.
Q You trusted them to provide your security, though, for January 6th?
A No.
Q You did not trust the Oath Keepers to provide security for you on January 6th?
A What I have described to this committee is that I usually have several layers of security. And the highest, the highest form of security I like to pay because they usually come bonded and other stuff like that. I do know on the 6th, let me volunteer this information is that I think I talked to either Stephen or somebody that the Oath Keepers were—because you can't have a rope line on the Capitol Grounds, so there is no way to protect the stage or limit people, so the Oath Keepers were going to be the limiting force for Lot 8. But you know, when I showed up there, they are not there.
Q Do you recall Mr. Morelock providing part of that voluntary security for you on January 6th?
A If that is one of two gentlemen, I would have to see a picture.
Q Okay.
A Of his face.
Q It is M-o-r-e-l-o-c-k.
Can you go to Exhibit 18 for us, please?
A Yes, sir.
Q This appears to be a Signal chat entitled Jan 5/6, D.C., OK, which I believe stands for Oath Keepers security. The rest of it is cut off. Do you recall being a member of this Signal chat?
A Can I have a minute to read it?
Q Please.
A Could you define member?
Q Okay. Let's actually just make it easier, on the middle of this page, it says Ali Alexandra. Is that you?
A Well, I'm Ali Alexander. This seems like what you're saying is that this is a screen shot on Stephen Brown's phone based off what we just tackled and it says, I'm a participant in this chat. I'm not a member of an organization, I'm not a member of—
Q All right. That's fair. So you were a participant of the Signal chat?
A I don't recall this, but I am not reading anything that is sticking out that, you know, that looks foreign.
Q Do you recall why this Signal group chat was created?
A Probably to handle security.
Q Right.
A Volunteers.
Q The Oath Keepers volunteered security for you?
A Yeah, yeah. Well, not for me. If Stephen Brown is not—was not hired to handle my January 5 events or me going around as a public figure to other events. And so, this chat would have been specifically only about Lot 8, which means that if they weren't my security they are again the Lot 8's, again, kind of perimeter buffers.
Q Okay. Go to Exhibit 22 for me, please.
A Yes, sir.
Q And this is where I got the name Jeff Morelock from.
A Okay.
Q There is a text message between you and Mr. Stephen Brown. And it looks like he says, "room needed for Ali PSD guys at the JW in the name of Jeff Morelock and Tom Burgess." And you respond back with a thumbs up emoji. Do you recall these two individuals providing volunteer security for you on Jan 6th?
A The first thing I would like to point out is there is a discrepancy in the evidence with Stephen Brown. And that's that the three or two other pieces of evidence that you've shown me with him, my name an Ali Alexandra. On this one it says Ali Akbar. And so, that's my birth name, which I don't think I've ever told Stephen, and your iPhone doesn't save it that way.
So I have told this committee already there are two gentlemen who I didn't know the names of that were Oath Keeper volunteers. They were at the bottom of the stack of my security detail. And when I say my security detail, it could apply to me as a person or whatever group I was with, I do not recall this exchange. And the red flag to me here is that there are two different names Ali Akbar and Ali Alexandra cannot occupy the same space on an iPhone.
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Q Mr. Alexander, on Exhibit 22, do you see the little picture next to the Ali Akbar character. Is that your face or is it your position that that's not your face?
A That is a picture of me. That's a publicly available picture of me from Georgia in the 2000s.
Q So sitting here you have no memory of this and it is your position that it is not you on that text chain?
A My position is what I stated.
Q No, no. I'm asking you, yes or no, is it your position that it is not you on the text chain in Exhibit 22?
A My position is that I do not recall this text exchange, that there were two Oath Keepers given to me at the bottom of my security stack. If these are the two gentlemen, then I will have to take someone else's word for it. I don't remember. I'm getting their names. I meet a lot of people, I met tens of thousands of people on the 5th and 6th, me personally. And I would just like to finish. But the discrepancy of evidence, like this wouldn't be admitted to court. You have my name is Ali Akbar here.
Q I totally understand.
A I just want to finish. No, I would like to finish.
Q I don't want to interrupt you. This is important, because this isn't court. And I respect that there is a lot of prep and I really do respect that—
A No, it's not prep, this is me.
Q I get that, but it is important that this is not court. And I don't want you to waste a lot of time, and, frankly, lawyers' fees, on objecting to things that aren't relevant to our situation. I just need to know are you saying here today that you don't believe that's you having that conversation, is it your position that's not me. That's a yes or no.
A My position is that I do not recall this text exchange.
. Thank you.
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Q Before I go on, who is Mr. Nathan Martin?
A Nathan Martin is a friend of mine that I've known, I think, for a decade and he's not really a big Trump fan. And when Stop the Steal was growing faster than I could by myself kind of coordinate, he volunteered to help coordinate some of that stuff, or I recruited him to help coordinate some of that stuff, because he's really good at logistics. And he runs, like, a travel agency so we were able to book stuff through him.
Q So he helps you, like, book travel for various events?
A Yeah.
Q Did he book your travel—actually, did he book other people in Stop the Steal's travel as well, in addition to you?
A Like I said, Stop the Steal is me. But if I asked him to book someone else, he would book it.
Q Okay. So can you go to Exhibit 21 then.
And go to the third page of Exhibit 21. So you've already said you stayed at the JW Marriott on January 6th. The first name on the third page appears to say Akbar/Ali. This would be you staying at the JW Marriott, right? And it is double-sided?
A Okay.
Q I'm sorry.
A Yes.
Q Okay. And we mentioned in the text message from Stephen Brown earlier about personal security. There is that Tom Burgess name under the Stop the Steal room block. So did he stay in your—you're not going to deny that he stayed in your room block, right?
A According to these records, that seems to be what it suggests.
Q Okay. And if you go to two pages ahead, there is going to be a Jeff Morelock, correct?
A Two pages? I'm sorry.
Q In the same exhibit, there is an individual in the Stop the Steal room block named Jeff Morelock—
A This paperwork says that he was staying in the same room with this Tom Burgess.
Q Okay. So let's he go back to Exhibit 14—not 14, sorry. I misspoke. Let's go back to Exhibit 22, the one you were just saying you cannot confirm whether that is you. The room block listings we just looked at is consistent with Stephen Brown saying "room needed for Ali PSD guys at the JW in the name of Jeff Morelock and Tom Burgess," correct?
A That's what you've shown me, yes.
Q So let's go back to Exhibit 18 in the Signal chat. Do you know who OK Gator 1 is?
A No. That's someone who works with Stewart Rhodes. At first I thought OK meant Oklahoma, but I like your description better, Oath Keepers.
Q And you so you didn't know the name Kelly Meggs?
A Kelly Meggs?
Q Who?
A Kelly Meggs. You didn't know that name?
Q Yes.
A That name is not ringing a bell at all and I don't see it on this sheet.
Q Okay. What about, did you know Mr. Don Seikerman, he's on this chat on the bottom.
A No, I don't. I'm not familiar with that name right now, and I don't remember ever being familiar with that name.
Q Do you still have these Signal chats?
A I don't believe so.
Q Okay. Let's go to Exhibit 12, so it appears on January 4th that Mr. Stephen Brown forwarded you a list and he says, "This is the list of PSD we have working with us and their names/nicknames from Signal.
Mr. Kamenar. Sorry. What exhibit is this?
Mr. . This is 12.
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Q Is your email address?
A That is my email address.
Q And Nathan Martin, would refer probably I am assuming to the Nathan Martin you just discussed who does did your logistics for Stop the Steal?
A Yeah, he did some of the logistics. I believe that is his email address.
Q And do you recall receiving this email?
A I do not recall receiving this email. And I can tell you why I don't recall it.
Q Why don't recall it?
A January 4th, 2021 at 5:55 p.m. I was in Georgia, helping out in the runoff. I don't know that I ever saw this email. I was working on run off, helping out with events on the 5th and the 6th, doing Georgia logistics, and trying to get my butt D.C. the 7 next morning by 6 a.m. So I don't recall ever seeing this email. And, you know, I see here it says "Gator Kelly Meggs." When you said it the first time I thought Kelly was a woman. And this suggests that it's a guy.
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Q Can I ask you something? Does that mean that you would have allowed Stephen Brown and Nathan Martin to coordinate this with you on your behalf while were you busy in Georgia?
A It could, because as I've testified to this committee, this is like such a volunteer organic effort. We are not getting our marching orders from Trump or the RNC. And so there's a lot of labor of love which requires a lot of delegation. And I trust Steve Brown, Stephen Brown and Nathan Martin to be professionals and to do the right thing. And they are both Christian and I'm a Christian. And I don't—I don't mess around with details like this when I don't have to. And sometimes, I'll fly into a conversation and then I'm out, but that's why they have group conversations, so that other people can take it—take it from me.
Q I just wanted to clarify because I think earlier you said you were the one person for Stop the Steal, so for them to do this, you believe they had your authority to act on your behalf to make these arrangements without your knowledge—without you seeing this, they could make these arrangements.
A I'm the only person with Stop the Steal, LLC. I didn't give anybody else a directorship or officership, or—and no one else was really given political making powers. So logistics stuff I rely on people I pay, or volunteers who have that in their talent stack.
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Q So just humor me, there appears to be what 20 or so names in the list that Mr. Brown forwards to you on January 4th. Is that right? And you can take time to look it over.
A That's what this email kind of shows. And it's an email that I don't recall seeing. I probably—this is probably in my inbox as unread. And I don't—I don't recall seeing this, but I also don't see anything wrong with it, so.
Q Why would I need that many security folks for January 6th?
A Well, I think I've testified on the record already that I needed two at least with my party. And then we just needed bodies for the perimeter of Lot 8 so that it didn't get out of control, because you're not allowed rope lines. So this is about you don't have equipment, what do you have? You have human bodies.
Q So these folks were supposed to, like, kind of protect the perimeter of Lot 8 on January 6th?
A That's what I've tasked Stephen Brown with, and that's why they are coordinating together.
Q And these are the Oath Keepers that you talked to Mr. Rhodes about from November of 2020 when you met him in Atlanta—
A I'm sorry. I missed it because of the cough.
Q These individuals, these are all Oath Keepers, and I'm presuming this is coming from your relationship Mr. Rhodes from November of 2020?
A Oh, no. No, that would be the wrong presumption. I don't have anything to do with the Oath Keepers. They are a veterans group that has volunteered services for other speakers associated with me and me. And so, I can't confirm this list the people for you, because I'm not a part of their organization. And the only reason I would think that we would need these names is because, you know—and look, some of them are missing names. So it is kind of weird to me, it's like that's not my—that's—I needed people to watch my stage. If they were Oath Keepers, or if they were Moms for America or whatever, we needed people as a perimeter, because we didn't have a rope line. And you have a lot of speakers, and we have a video camera.
I even talked about how it's unlikely that we're going have a large crowd, they will be doing other stuff or other permits. And we have a video where we do a tight shot of everyone and we'll release those videos, so what these people are is about video equipment, staging. And we can call that security—I don't even know what PSD means. So if somebody wants to inform me on what that means, that will help contextualize this, too.