Translation talk:Romance of the Three Kingdoms

Information about this edition
Edition:	Mao Zonggang (Qing Dynasty)
Source:	ISBN 9571407720
Contributor(s):	Initially translated by A-cai
Level of progress:
Notes:
Proofreaders:

[untitled thread]

If anyone else would like to help me with entering in some of the text you can find it on http://www.threekingdoms.com/ —unsigned comment by Winn3317 (talk) 16:01, 5 May 2006.

Please indicate where the translations are from. Recent translations may be copyrighted.--Jusjih 16:13, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I recently bought the C.H. Brewitt-Taylor translation of ROTK (ISBN 0804834679). In the intro, it says that Brewitt-Taylor translated ROTK in the 1920's. The translation being less than 100 hundred years old may indeed pose copyright problems. However, in comparing the text from http://www.threekingdoms.com with my book, it is considerably different:

http://www.threekingdoms.com/

An empire long united, must divide; an empire long divided, must unite. This has been so since antiquity. When the rule of the Zhōu Dynasty weakened, seven contending kingdoms sprang up, warring one with another until the kingdom of Qín prevailed and possessed the empire. But when Qín's destiny had been fulfilled, arose two opposing kingdoms, Chǔ and Hàn, to fight for the mastery. And Hàn was the victor.

Brewitt-Taylor

Empires wax and wane; states cleave asunder and coalesce. When the rule of Chou weakened seven contending principalities sprang up, warring one with another till they settled down as Ts'in and when its destiny had been fulfilled arose Ch'u and Han to contend for the mastery. And Han was the victor.

The explanation at http://www.threekingdoms.com is that they changed the Romanizations into Pinyin, and corrected some of the text. But, in looking at their version, it might as well be a brand new translation. It may have been inspired by Brewitt-Taylor's translation, but it is definitely not his translation. The translation comes from the people at http://www.threekingdoms.com. If they freely release their translation per GFDL, then no problem. However, if we go with the translation from http://www.threekingdoms.com, we shouldn't list C.H. Brewitt-Taylor as the translator. -- A-cai 12:00, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

On the other hand, the translation at http://www.threekingdoms.com might be considered a derivative work, and thus still pose a copyright problem. Is there a copyright lawyer in the house? -- A-cai 12:08, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I looked up Brewitt-Taylor and he died in March 1938. If it affects the copyright status, he lived in China at the time he made the translation, and the Chinese copyright term is life plus 50 years. Here's a link to his obituary. Ironfrost (talk) 04:46, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm considering starting all over with a fresh Wikisource translation. My version of the above would be:

Wikisource translation (my version, for the time being)

話說天下大勢，分久必合，合久必分。周末七國分爭，併入於秦。及秦滅之後，楚漢分爭，又併入於漢。

It is a general truism of this world that anything long divided will surely unite, and anything long united will surely divide. At the end of the Zhou Dynasty, seven kingdoms vied for supremacy, and became a part of the Qin Dynasty. Similarly, after the Qin Dynasty was destroyed, Chu and Han vied for supremacy, and became a part of the Han Dynasty.

I would strive to be as literal as possible, without sacrificing readability English. For example, I could have been 100% faithful to the original by saying, "In speaking of the great trends under the heavens" (It is a general truism of this world that). However, this sounds awkward in English, so I would tend to compromise, and go for something that captures the spirit of what the author was trying to convey. I would be willing to give it a shot, and then let other wordsmiths eventually smooth out the English.

I also want to ditch the overly complicated html layout in chapter one. It is gorgeous, but too unwieldy for most potential contributors. We don't want to scare away the linguistic and historical experts with a bunch of style sheet codes ;-) I think a simpler table design would work much better. If anyone objects to my plan, please let your thoughts be known, because I plan on diving in within the near future. -- A-cai 13:15, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

translation (into German) for reading group possible ?

Hello, I am in the planning of setting up this reading group on Wikiversity: v:Romance of the Three Kingdoms (by Luo Guanzhong). And for preparation I would like to work more with the text. So I thought, I could start translating the offered text step by step from here to German and while translating: gather more info about the content (e.g. looking up history facts on WP).

I have already asked at German Wikisource: they told me that unfinished text (here we have right now chapters 1-5 finished from total 120) there would be deleted (besides the lack of time to review the text finally). Now I have two options: to put the translated text on

• English Wikiversity (it has also GFDL)
• German Wikiversity (which has CC-BY-SA 2.5)

I guess I would need the permission of the people who participated in this project ? As far as I looked, this seems to be at least mainly: A-cai, Winn3317 and more -> the prob is with what when users do not reply back or even worse how to contact IPs (which is nearly impossible) ?

Is there perhaps another way to deal with the translation ? ----Erkan Yilmaz uses Chat (try) 18:24, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The text can be used only under the GNU FDL, id est: in GNU FDL wikis like en WV. Each user (including IPs) who has contributed copyrighted content has to be asked for permission if the translation should be available under another license. Thus it would be the best to take the parts of the users who have given permission and to translate the rest of ch. 1-5 new. For the results under CC it would be the best to define the "attribution" (-BY) as project name (not individual authors) --Histo 20:58, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

First of all, is there a German edition of the text that is public domain? The translations by w:Franz Kuhn are not public domain. [1]

If there is no option but to start a German translation from scratch. According to oldwikisource:Wikisource:Subdomains coordination, the German project accepts translations, so discussion with them should continue until so we can better understand what their issues are, and how we can help allay their fears. Where is you current discussion with them?

There are two more options to host the German translation until it is complete: put it on Multilingual Wikisource, or put it here on the English Wikisource.

John Vandenberg ^(chat) 22:33, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you all for your fast replies.

The discussion which took place was actually only an informal chat with one person (not with Histo). I don't want to cause trouble now - if some misunderstanding happened because of this, it is solely my responsibility - and not from somebody else.

What has happened so far ? The text is imported now to English Wikiversity (which has GFDL): see Romance of the Three Kingdoms. I have started to translate into German (see here). I am keeping also the English + Chinese text. Please advise me, what would be the best way to proceed ? For me the place where the text stays is not relevant. If I can put it here, even better, because then I have probably faster contact with the translators, where we will profit from the interaction.

"First of all, is there a German edition of the text that is public domain?" -> not that I know of.

btw: We got already feedback: see here. My intentions are for the time being: to get more info about the (con)text for the reading group (which will start in the future) and read the text while translating more intensively. ----Erkan Yilmaz uses Chat (try) 23:12, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I understand all of the issues. The translation which you currently see on English Wikisource is 99.9% my own. It is not copyrighted. If I understand GFDL correctly, I do not believe you need permission from anybody to use it. However, wouldn't it be better to base the German translation on the original Chinese? I'm not sure that a translation of a translation would be ideal. However, if you cannot find a suitable Chinese-German translator willing to take on such a huge task, I can sympathize. -- A-cai 23:28, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

It is not clear that this translation is "not copyrighted". Unless otherwise specified it is copyright, and may only be copied/modified in accordance with the GFDL. To release it into the public domain, it would need to be tagged with {{PD-release}} after all contributors have agreed to that. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 23:46, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Hello A-cai, also thank you for your fast reply.

Unfortunately I can not speak Chinese :-( And since I saw this translation by you and this is a wikimedia foundation project, I tend to use this one more.

GFDL: usage (not translation) is no problem for other projects which use GFDL (like the English Wikiversity where it is imported now and which after chatting with John seems also a suitable place).

I had the idea to import it into German Wikisource or Wikiversity and translate it then there, but that would have caused probably some probs (because of permission so far not available).

On the other hand, if the material would stay in one place I could cooperate more with you (e.g. review the English translation - see my questions here about the "autumn moons" - you could also on a visit here see that there has changed something on the talk pages or in the pages itself and I could then get feedback by you and vice versa).

A-cai: would you be interested in some form of cooperation ? ----Erkan Yilmaz uses Chat (try) 23:57, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm happy to reply to questions that are posted here. I probably would not check the Wikiversity site all that often, so this talk place would be a better place to find me. As to your questions:

• "autumn moons": around earth (in close distance) I just see one moon, so either it is a typo or a metaphor for something ? done

answer: Yes, this was a typo. I fixed it immediately after seeing your post. Thanks for pointing it out.

• "green mountains": means perhaps that there are trees or other green plants blooming on mountains ?

answer: Correct, the implied meaning is that there are tree or plants on the mountain which makes it look green in color.

b. I also had the urge to translate it sometimes a little more different, e.g.

b1. "wie oft war die Abendsonne rot ?" -> "wie oft war die Abendsonne schon rot ?"

in English: "how many times has the setting sun been red?" -> "how many times has the setting sun already been red?"

answer: Ancient Chinese grammar does not have the same strict rules about past or present tense etc. The literal translation would be: "how many times evening sun red?" I don't know about German, but such a sentence is very awkward in English. Therefore, a translator must infer what the appropriate tense should be in the translation. I hope this explanation makes sense. In other words, the word "already" is not found in the original, but it is implied. Therefore, I would include it in my translation if it makes the German sound better. Just my personal opinion. As you know, translation is as much an art as it is a science.

b2. "gewöhnt wie sie sind" -> "gewöhnt wie sie es schon sind"

in English: "accustomed as they are" -> "accustomed as they are already"

But I sticked to the English text. Perhaps later in a second run this can be changed ?

answer: Again, if it sounds better in German with the "already" included, it does not really change the meaning, in my opinion.

c. Also I am not sure if here is missing something ?

"how many things from past and present have they laughed and talked about with each other?" -> "about how many things from past and present have they laughed and talked about with each other?"

answer: As a native English speaker, my original wording sounds more natural:

1. how many things from past and present have they laughed and talked about with each other?"

However, I can understand how the structure of the English sentence might be confusing. Hopefully, I have answered your questions. If you need further clarification, feel free to make another post. -- A-cai 11:56, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

A-cai - you are just amazing :-)

I didn't expect such an answer - thanks - your answers clarified things for me.

Now I am even more eager that my ordered books arrives :-) ----Erkan Yilmaz uses Chat (try) 12:08, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Erkan, I have a question for you. Did you say that the German Wikisource would not allow incomplete translations? If so, it sounds like a wrong-headed policy to me. At the rate I'm going, it may take me 20 years to translate all 120 chapters (unless I get some help!). If English Wikisource did not allow incomplete works, I would not have even attempted it. That would have been a shame, since I think that my translation, while not perfect, is a breakthrough with respect to integration of multimedia and hypertext (thanks to the wiki architecture). Feel free to tell them I said that. -- A-cai 12:18, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I have seen that you work good [2].

de.WS: it didn't trouble me at that point in time, because I wanted it as a step to get into the realm of the ROTK. I am sure later on in the project, people will be convinced to take it also into de.WS - hopefully. As said above it was in IRC where only 1 person at that time replied. ----Erkan Yilmaz uses Chat (try) 13:36, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

import problems

Well, I had yesterday import problems (see Wikiversity Colloquium). So I guess I will have to wait for all to be imported at a later time :-( ----Erkan Yilmaz uses Chat (try) 11:26, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Maps

The size of the maps in each chapter has always been a challenge for me. My dream has always been to have a Google earth type map, where all of the place names are labeled on the map, and you can dynamically zoom in and out at your leisure. Unfortunately, Google earth/maps is not an option for Wiki. I think I hit on the best compromise so far with the introduction of overflow scrolling. With this change, the map will automatically cut off and add horizontal scrolling, if the screen is too small. If you are on an Ipad, Iphone or Ipod touch, you will need to use two fingers together to push the map around. To zoom in and out, you would still pinch and squeeze. On a regular laptop or PC, the scrollbars and zoom menu options will accomplish the same thing. If anyone is good at these sorts of technical issues and has an idea for how to make it even better, please let me know. Thanks. -- A-cai (talk) 02:18, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Source of this text

@A-cai: First: awesome work on this translation!

But I also wonder what the source of this text that you are translating from is? Xover (talk) 08:26, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

I apologize for not responding sooner. I haven’t been logging on as frequently in recent years. I hope to get back working on Romance on a regular basis at some point. At any rate to answer your question, I primarily am relying on ISBN 957-14-0772-0 for the original Chinese source text. I also consult ISBN 957-9113-05-X, but I mainly use this second version for the footnotes, since the first version I mentioned has shorter paragraphs, making it easier to work with. — A-cai (talk) 14:06, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

@A-cai: Thanks. The sources you cite are from 1971 and 1994. Are there no old clearly-public domain editions of this work we could use? Also, our translation policy is that Wikisource translations should be scan-backed (using the Proofread Page system) and already be transcribed on the original language Wikisource (zhWS, in this case, I presume). Perhaps zhWS has already proofread this work in the original language so that we could use that scan for this translation too? I'm not really able to navigate Chinese-language projects so I am unable to check effectively. Xover (talk) 17:01, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

From what I can tell, the 1971 book uses the text from the original Mao Zonggang edition which dates to the Qing dynasty, so I don’t believe that aspect of the 1971 book could be copyrighted. However, I’m not sure about other aspects of the book, such as the additional footnotes that were added into the 1971 book. In terms of something that could be scanned in, I’m not sure what the best solution to that would be. I’m sure there are old print editions of Romance dating to the Qing dynasty in some museum or old bookstore somewhere. Having said that, we do have the text in zh wikisource already, although I doubt anyone over there scanned anything in. The editors of zh wikisource might be better positioned to handle the scanning task, I don’t know. Hope this helps. A-cai (talk) 20:17, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

One additional thing about the version in zh wikisource. The blurb at the top of the zh wikisource version claims that it is the Mao Zonggang version (the same version in the 1971 book). It also provides a link to an older version, which I don’t use for the English wikisource translation. At any rate, I basically copy the Chinese from the zh wikisource and then proof it against my 1971 print edition. I rarely if ever find discrepancies, for what it’s worth. A-cai (talk) 20:25, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

@A-cai: Well, no, locating a physical copy and scanning it is a bit of a tall order. But one would presume that a work like this would have an existing scan in a repository somewhere. Have you tried checking the Internet Archive and HathiTrust? Their coverage of non-English works is rather poor, but they do have some. And there must be similar repositories for Chinese-language works.

Anything first published in 1971 (i.e. the footnotes) are covered by copyright and can't be hosted here. And removing the footnotes that are in the published edition we're transcribing would be (de)annotating which isn't permitted under our annotations policy.

The basic gist, whether transcribing or translating, is that we do not transcribe or translate a general work; we transcribe or translate as specific edition of a work, from a scan of that edition, and transcribe it as published. Xover (talk) 08:35, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Here is a link that appears to be an example of what you are thinking of:

• https://ctext.org/sanguo-yanyi

Let me know if something like this is what you were thinking of, or something else. A-cai (talk) 09:40, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

@A-cai: No, I mean a literal scan (images) of an edition of this book in Chinese (which I was not able to find on the site you linked). Something like this, except an edition that is old enough to be in the public domain.

We upload the file to Commons, for example at a name similar to File:The Romance of the Three Kingdoms (1843).djvu. Then we create an index here on English Wikisource at Index:The Romance of the Three Kingdoms (1843).djvu. From the index you will have links to wikipages like Page:The Romance of the Three Kingdoms (1843).djvu/1, Page:The Romance of the Three Kingdoms (1843).djvu/2, and so on; one wikipage for each page image in the scan. We transcribe (or in your case translate) directly into the wikpage corresponding to each scanned page (with the nice Proofread Page interface showing the text box and the page image side by side), and when done use transclusion to display larger units of the text (a chapter or similar) for presentation on a wikipage like Translation:The Romance of the Three Kingdoms/Chapter 1. I can help out with all the fiddly technical bits, but since I don't understand Chinese I am unable to effectively look for a scan.

You might also want to check the category Romance of the Three Kingdoms on Wikimedia Commons. It collects media files related to the work, and some of them may be already extant scans of a useful edition. For example, I see File:History of Three Kingdoms in Yi Xiang Tang Edition WDL4455.pdf and File:Romance of the Three Kingdoms in Illustrations WDL11391.pdf there, but I am unable to assess whether these are relevant. There are a number of other editions there, but these look to me to be Thai-language translations. Xover (talk) 10:36, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Ok, so I believe the one we want is c:Category:四大竒書第一種. The title suggests that it is some version of the edition first published in 1680, based on Mao Zonggang’s recension. The scanned copy in Wikimedia appears to come from Waseda University’s library (https://www.wul.waseda.ac.jp/kotenseki/html/he21/he21_02119/index.html). I can’t tell what year it was published, but it certainly looks old. The main text seems to pretty much match the version I have been translating, which is the most popular version amongst modern readers. The main difference is that it lacks punctuation and paragraphs, which is somewhat inconvenient for modern readers. It does include a few additional prefaces and various notes that I have not included in my translation so far. All 120 chapters are contained in the 20 pdf files. A-cai (talk) 15:26, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

@A-cai: Oh, excellent. I'll see about cropping out those massive borders / backgrounds and setting up the technical bits. I'll throw you a ping when I have something for you to look at. Xover (talk) 19:42, 1 September 2024 (UTC)