Author talk:Thomas Wyatt

Sourcing

http://www.luminarium.org/renlit/wyattbib.htm Sherurcij ^{Collaboration of the Week: Author:Thomas Wyatt} 02:23, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

The poems I have added came from [1]. John Vandenberg 09:09, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

The works My Lute Awake! and To His Lute are exact copies, minus titles. Hiyo Rogo 15:33, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for catching that, deleted the latter as I believe "My Lute Awake" is the more common title. Sherurcij ^{Collaboration of the Week: Author:Thomas Wyatt} 20:59, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I find this open access academic paper about Wyatt's translations. It seems unlikely to me that these are translations written by Wyatt, but rather modern (as in, last 100 years) adaptations of Wyatt's translations. But I'm definitely not a seasoned scholar of this stuff. Can we clarify the origins of these, and annotate them so that the reader can understand more clearly? @John Vandenberg, @Sherurcij: -Pete (talk) 02:02, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Sherurcij seems to have left the wikiverse in 2010; John hasn't contributed anything in wikisource for several years, so I doubt you will get much help there. -- Beardo (talk) 17:01, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Sure, but I consider messages like this due diligence before escalating elsewhere...you never know. Londonjackbooks (talk • contribs) has been quiet for a while, but responded when I nudged her on a 13 year old message recently...highlight of my WikiMonth :) -Pete (talk) 02:36, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Peteforsyth (talk • contribs) :) I am a bit rusty, but if anyone is willing to find or upload an Index (or two) of a collection of his works, I could begin matching (what's that called again?) the unsourced poems with the source text... I found a two-volume collection at Archive that appears to be definitive ([2], [3]) and from a repository that has put forth trustworthy scans (in my experience) from past projects... I am open to other recommended sources, however, if anyone is more well-versed on the subject matter. Thanks! Londonjackbooks (talk) 03:15, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Londonjackbooks That's great! I'm currently uploading both those texts via IA Upload, they should be done soon. File:The Poems of Sir Thomas Wiat volume 1.djvu and File:The Poems of Sir Thomas Wiat volume 2.djvu. I should note, I'm not deeply invested in these, I've just been working along with Beardo and others to process the backlog at Category:Works with no license template. But I'd be glad to pitch in here and there, always enjoy working together. -Pete (talk) 18:32, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Pete! I will for starters begin to match the unsourced texts referenced on Sir Wyatt's author page with the texts you have kindly uploaded. Thanks for doing that! Londonjackbooks (talk) 01:16, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

P. S. Peteforsyth (talk • contribs) I'm not seeing that Volume I was uploaded to Commons yet... There is a .pdf of volume 1 (uploaded to Commons in 2020), but that is from a different repository and some pages are problematic. Was your upload still in progress? I don't want to jump the gun... I am in no hurry. Thanks! Londonjackbooks (talk) 01:30, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

@Londonjackbooks: I got mixed up between vols. 1 and 2, sorry about that. Stand by, I'll report back when they're ready. -Pete (talk) 01:56, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

@Londonjackbooks: They're ready:

• Vol 1: (transcription project)
• Vol 2: (transcription project)

Sorry about the title inconsistency, it seemed to have trouble uploading to the original title even though the file had been deleted. -Pete (talk) 23:19, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

All good... Thank you @Peteforsyth:! In my current situation, sometimes I have large chunks of time on my hands, sometimes none at all... But I look forward to doing a little editing again. I appreciate your setting up the Indexes for me! Stay well! Londonjackbooks (talk) 15:46, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that Sonnet 140 is a non-Wyatt translation of "The long love that in my thought doth harbor", perhaps made by an (anonymous/IP) Wikisource user, or perhaps elsewhere. I'll bring it to Proposed deletions as a likely copyvio and/or perhaps out of scope, but if the sonnet numbering is based on some canonical system, it should probably be turned into a redirect or a versions page (which might also include Henry Howard's translation). @Londonjackbooks: I tried to find this one in the volumes recently imported, but as far as I can tell it's not included there. More/more knowledgeable eyes could help! -Pete (talk) 17:42, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

@Peteforsyth: The poem ("The longe love") does appear in the volumes that you uploaded here... Wyatt's translation is in Volume I, on page 14: Sonnet 2. In Volume II, the poem, in Italian, is referenced on p. 187 in Appendix A (Italian Sources): "Sonnet No. 2.—The longe love. Petrarch cxl [140]." Petrarch himself apparently instituted the numbering system for his poems. Londonjackbooks (talk) 02:29, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

P. S. When you alight onto page 187 of volume 2, you may notice that pagination appears to be off.

Ah, great work!! I also found it on the Italian Wikisource: it:Canzoniere (Rerum vulgarium fragmenta)/Amor, che nel penser mio vive et regna There's also this, which is likely the source for the incompletely-transcribed Canzoniere.

And, links for the ones you identified: Page:The Poems of Sir Thomas Wiat volume 1.djvu/50 and Page:The Poems of Sir Thomas Wiat, vol. 2.djvu/220.

I did notice the pagination of the OCR is off for Volume 2, I noted that on the index page. Could be corrected, and I will try, but it's a little confusing to work with DJVU tools. Probably a good project for me to hone my skills, but it might take me a little while. I don't think there's any reason to halt working on Vol. 2 here, because the page numbers of the images shouldn't change. -Pete (talk) 03:16, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

RE: pagination: If memory serves, I think I used to ask Mpaa for help with pagination correction issues. I have not looked around to see who is still here... Londonjackbooks (talk) 08:18, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

@londonjackbooks: Just an incremental step here (leaving pagination complexity for a later date), but I took a stab at finalizing the one sonnet that led me here. I think there are probably better ways to go about the notes, if you feel like taking a look. (I also asked Alien333 to look at it.) -Pete (talk) 20:42, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

(I don't really understand what is your problem with "pagination", but maybe I could help with it if you explained.

If it's about the OCR not being on the right page, we could just rerun OCR and on the file and upload a new version on commons.

I don't thing it would not cause problems, but to be checked.

On the other hand, Mpaa is still around, as far as I know.) Alien333 (what I did — why I did it wrong) 21:39, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

@Peteforsyth: nevermind, after redoing OCR on it it is still shifted by a page.

This file appears to have a page that should not be there : the first cover, the black one, does not appear on the IA file, only the red one does.

I'll try removing it and re-OCRing the file, see if it fixes it. Alien333 (what I did — why I did it wrong) 21:52, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Done, here is the fixed index : Index:The Poems of Sir Thomas Wiat, volume 2.djvu.

Sorry, the OCR quality is less good than what you had, but at least it's on the right pages.

(By the way, I'm curious, what do you use for OCR? I usually use any2djvu, but it often leaves clutter and DEL's around.) Alien333 (what I did — why I did it wrong) 10:24, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

@Alien333: Thanks for all this. First, you're right, I suppose that's not the most accurate use of "pagination", but you figured out what I meant.

My plan was to use djvulibre tools to move the existing OCR to the correct pages. I've done this on a small scale, it seems a bit daunting to take on for such a big book, but I bet I could figure out a way to automate it. It seems like the Internet Archive generally uses pretty good OCR, relative to the tools I've tried, so that seems like a solid (if tricky) approach.

I don't do a lot of OCR off-wiki, and whenever I do I find myself wishing I knew what are the better tools, especially FOSS tools. I've been trying to learn sed and awk in order to do better OCR cleanup prior to upload, but it's...slow going.

Just to be sure I'm following what you're doing...did you run the OCR offline, and you haven't yet uploaded the new file? Because I'm not seeing a new version of the v2 file on Commons, and the pages are still misaligned. -Pete (talk) 14:01, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

@Peteforsyth I put it on a new file, because the simplest way I knew to remove that page was just to re-take the original file, reconvert it to djvu, and re-OCR it. This is the index : Index:The Poems of Sir Thomas Wiat, volume 2.djvu. It has a similar title to the other one (Index:The Poems of Sir Thomas Wiat, vol. 2.djvu). I also uploaded another file simply because I did not have the right to overwrite that file, and I also tried to get consistency in naming at the same time. (Which of course failed because of the comma.) Alien333 (what I did — why I did it wrong) 15:27, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

@Alien333: I appreciate your comment at Help:Poetry#{{ppoem}} that the anchor links at Page:The Poems of Sir Thomas Wiat volume 1.djvu/50 may be excessive. I think before reverting, that part, I'd like to get a better feel for how notes are used throughout this work...if they're basically all one-page situations, then I agree wholeheartedly. But if many of the notes go back further in a chapter, it might be worth leaving it this way for consistency...

The issues I was more concerned about are the line breaks within the notes, and the fact that the notes are not aligned left (due to the varying widths of the line numbers). I don't think it's a huge big deal, but maybe somebody has developed an elegant way to deal with that I'm unaware of.

Finally...sorry for missing your link to the new upload. That seems fine, maybe best if we delete my own upload of volume 2, which is now pretty redundant and inferior...any objection if I request speedy delete at Commons? -Pete (talk) 20:23, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

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@User:Peteforsyth : I changed that page like I would have done it. Feel free to revert, of course.

And, indeed, there is an elegant way to deal with that. It's {{phantom}}. It creates a gap whose length is the display length of the argument.

About the file, no objection. Alien333 (what I did — why I did it wrong) 06:35, 24 March 2024 (UTC)