User talk:RaboKarbakian/Archives/2024

Digital document badge at Wikidata

Hello, I have noticed that in Wikidata you add the digital document badge to various links to Wikisource entries. However, the badge should be used only to born-digital documents, not to all WS documents. See the "also known as" at d:Q28064618, or d:Talk:Q28064618#What is this?, or the request for creating the badge at phabricator. -- Jan Kameníček (talk) 23:02, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Jan Kameníček Good to know and I will take your word for it. I have been a little on sometimes and off sometimes with the badges....--RaboKarbakian (talk) 23:30, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Birdcraft/Untitled-Andrew Lang

I see that you created this page a few years ago. I assume that it was intended for the poem which appears at the top of Page:Birdcraft-1897.djvu/15. Do you think that poem should have a separate page ? -- Beardo (talk) 22:30, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

I realise that the poem was supposed to appear but for some reason wasn't. I changed the style of transclusion to get it to appear. -- Beardo (talk) 15:18, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Beardo Sorry it took so long to get back. I did that before I learned about handling those things and in the last 8 months need a refresher for all that I used to know. I will look into this when I get my chops back....--RaboKarbakian (talk) 21:39, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Beardo So I poked through a couple of "What Links Here" links and found that the Lang poem is listed on Andrew Langs author page. I did this before knowing of Wikidata and also before knowing of {{anchor}}. Wikidata does not like anchor links, but wikidata also accepts redirects. So, your thoughts and heck! even desires for this as it is a challenge to look back for me here. I will just manage it the way you think best.--RaboKarbakian (talk) 20:44, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Welcome back!!! PseudoSkull (talk) 22:26, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

PseudoSkull! Was that you and Micky Mouse on Public Domain Day! Either answer, it was a beautiful thing, right then and there. (Glad to be back....)--RaboKarbakian (talk) 13:37, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

@RaboKarbakian: Yes, that was me. It was released to Wikisource at the exact moment of 12:00 AM EST January 1, 2024. Glad you're enjoying the 1928 film transcription efforts. PseudoSkull (talk) 22:25, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

• Nice to see you’re back again! I look forward to seeing your pretty illustrations. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 04:50, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
  • If you’re interested in doing some image work, I’ve just finished proofreading Isis Very Much Unveiled, an early Rackham publication. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 06:47, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

WOW! That might be the greatest AR book ever! TE(æ)A,ea., right on it (after even more decorative rules). --RaboKarbakian (talk) 13:34, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Rapunzel

Please repair this page. --EncycloPetey (talk) 19:07, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

EncycloPetey: I dropped a note with CalenduaAstaceae. If it is not a quick fix, I will make a data for the "nil entry" there. I think it is not a quick fix, that it might be in one of the two base wikidata modules. It would be nice to have it fixed there so any thing using it after could bring in the name, even if there is no data for it. If it is what I suspect.

Personally, I was uncomfortable making a data for "Miss Farq-whatever", not even a first name, but I can get over that if CA doesn't want to muck around in the base modules. If that is what it is.

Thanks for pointing it out!--RaboKarbakian (talk) 00:13, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Millions of Cats

You tagged this work with a license {{PD-US}} and death year for the author of 1928. She actually died in 1946. --EncycloPetey (talk) 23:50, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

EncycloPetey: I should have used {{PD-old}}?--RaboKarbakian (talk) 12:08, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Answered my own question. Author did not die over 100 years ago. (adding "reading licenses" to TODO list...)--RaboKarbakian (talk) 12:12, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

No, you just put the wrong death year into the template. You should have used 1946, not 1928. She did not die in 1928. --EncycloPetey (talk) 18:00, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Index:Atlas of the Munsell Color System

I found this - https://archive.org/details/sim_optical-society-of-america-journal_1940-12_30_12/page/587/mode/1up

It might help you recalibrate or produce an SVG version? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 14:32, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

ShakespeareFan00 That is a great page, but to convert all of that into the linear algebra; I don't know how to do this off the top of my head. I am not sure if I could have done this while in the linear algebra class either. I got the formula for determining Y' from w:Computer Graphics: Principles and Practice and that was necessary for all of those online converts and such. I was thinking my old scripts might find their way back to me (that perhaps my four day outing will finally after 10+ years be over). That (great) textbook, while available, is not up for loans via my inter-state library system here.

Those color conversions at my university, were "Elementary Linear Algebra"; which was a very difficult class for me. Later, Linear Algebra (which was mostly proofs) was so freaking easy. I still revile at the correct yet wrong naming of those classes. Not sure how other universities handle that.--RaboKarbakian (talk) 15:05, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

No worries. But it was a potential starting point. And in a few years time we get the actual "Book of Color" in the public domain:). ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:23, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

BTW If the journal issue I mentioned is out of copyright it would be nice to get onto Wikisoruce soon. That way someone else can use the data table.

I also found a 1967 set of calibration data, but its (C) status is little less clear.

15:23, 6 February 2024 (UTC) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:23, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

• Per this useful page, the first J.O.S.A. issue to be renewed was from volume 41, much later than the volume 30 you found. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 16:23, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

  Excellent. Come January next year, Wikisource will be placed to work on having at least 2 color standards up;)

  It's a shame I don't know anyone that could use this old papers to come up with a Lua module on wiki so we can have a color classfication scheme that isn't based on proprietary information.

  ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 16:34, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

IA is missing some issues of V30. Hathi has them limited search only, but it looks like the University of California has scanned all volumes. Searching WorldCat showed me many many pages of university/college libraries that have them (hard copy, mostly). There is, however, a public library toggle https://search.worldcat.org/title/1334208 for the unenrolled. --RaboKarbakian (talk) 16:41, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

For the specfic issue - Index:Journal of the Optical Society of America, volume 30, number 12.pdf. I also did a lot of cross referencing to find it :) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 16:46, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

https://archive.org/details/pub_optical-society-of-america-journal is the run as IA has it. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 09:35, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

ShakespeareFan00 I just made a request at Scan Lab for the rest of the issues. I also am really needing to step through some tutorials for the svgs.--RaboKarbakian (talk) 20:46, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Please use {{class block/s}} and {{class block/e}}

For your use case it would be appreciated if you could use {{class block/s}} and {{class block/e}} in preference to raw HTML, the reason is a plan to move HTML out of content namespaces, at some point. 14:00, 12 February 2024 (UTC) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 14:00, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

The only major change is that class lines should no longer need the quotes. (You also gain an @ parameter for an anchor, without needing an additional template.) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 14:02, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

The anchor part might be a problem because, if I can, I reuse the (in this case, Table) class.--RaboKarbakian (talk) 14:07, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

@ is optional. It doesn't get added as an "id" attribute, unless you supply it directly.

Please take a look at the underlying code if you think there will be conflicts. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 14:09, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Seems simple enough. My margins got screwed up tho'. Page:Journal of the Optical Society of America, volume 30, number 12.pdf/24--RaboKarbakian (talk) 14:57, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

That's because the table is bigger than the margins that get set-up, remember that they nest! ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:10, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Graphs in JOSA.

I would suggest grabbing these directly from the JP2 /JPEG scans at IA if you were not already doing so. Not sure if IA has really hi-res TIFF's but those are also a possibility. Thanks for the efforts BTW :) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 12:58, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

ShakespeareFan00: Thanks for the reminder. Also, look what I found: https://www.colour-science.org/api/0.3.3/html/colour.colorimetry.luminance.html there are source links!.--RaboKarbakian (talk) 16:57, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Noted.

I will also add a rather useful page reference in a later JOSA - https://archive.org/details/sim_optical-society-of-america-journal_1957-07_47_7/page/619/mode/1up?q=Ridgway , If the relevant articles are out of copyright, and in scope for Wikisource, we may have a way to not just recover the original Munsell , but possible Ridgway(1912) and 2 other systems!! (And a substantial chunk of the colors mentioned in NBS Circular 355 :) ).

Of course converting Python to Lua is beyond me. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 17:37, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

One of the articles (assuming it's no longer in copyright might prove very useful - https://archive.org/details/sim_paper-trade-journal_1947-11-06_125_19/page/218/mode/1up). It cross references a number of standards in use at publication date. At the very least we have the original Munsell to re-map, but it looks like there might be ways to use the 1943 as a crib into other systems to RGB, and potentially to measure scan fade for a number of early 20 the century works (potentially). And this all started as needing a way to get the colors in an SVG of some charts in one work :rofl: ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 17:37, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

There is this one matrix conversion: Y'; all color conversions use this algorithm (iirc). In use, you have a color (r,g,b), you convert it to its X, Y, Z and then use the Y to get Y' and with that, you can get Y_munsell and then X_munsell and Z_munsell which will give you (r,g,b)_munsell. If this is not exactly the right method, it is fairly close to it; almost ten years since I wrote my own conversion scripts. I copied those scripts from that site, but have yet to look at them. What I wrote above is what I will be looking for. Luminance is a different thing and (iirc) photoshop had luminance and lightness mixed up for several years.

The article had quite a bit of X, Y, Z in it. Maybe X', Y' and Z' are later. I was very interested in that article from Volume 6, as it might have been the first definition of X,Y,Z. "Cooperation" for nerds means mathematical standards.--RaboKarbakian (talk) 17:53, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

I also have an idea for a new color encoding though :

Proposed encoding scheme: Whole value is a 40 bit wide value (little endian).

Colorplane F (F 000 000 000-00 FF FF FF) is standard RGB (as for web)- with higher codes being control (such as specific codes for "Transparent","Out of range" etc..

Colorplane E (E 000 000 000-E 000 FFF FFF) is a digital quantisation of Munsell coding (to be determined)

Colorplane D (D 000 000 000-D 000 FFF FFF) Refers to the ISCC-NBS color numbers (Or if space other 'Spot' Color sytems)

Colorplane B-3 are currently unallocated. (Though I'm tempted to use plane 2 for 'compressed' data.

Colorplane 2 (2 000 000 000-2 FFF FFF FFF) is RGB (but 12 bit quantization)

Colorplane 1 (1 000 000 000-1 FFF FFF FFF) is XYZ. (12 bit quantization)

Colorplane 0 (0 000 000 000-0 FFF FFF FFF) is xyY. where the x y and Y are quantised to a 12 bit representation of the xy and Y values ( As these are typicaly scaled to between 0 and 1, the values are essentially a 3 figure fixed point value. This still gives a LOT of unused space though. :)

There may of course be overlaps in simmilar colors having codes in different color planes, There may be other systems that can be included, but I'm not sure how to encode CYMK(possibly it get's converted to sRGB) perhaps.

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 21:05, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

If we can get this encoding down to a 32bit one.. Hmm... 21:20, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Haha! Colorspace visions! All in "this can be hacked into tuples"! The closest conversation I had to this here was about how transparency increases file sizes exponentially -- as I was trying to make illustrated books for my reader. Envisioning colorspaces with any degree of accuracy seems just out of my reach, always; trusting the math being my fallback.

The key to that article is here: https://archive.org/details/sim_optical-society-of-america-journal_1922-08_6_6/page/527/mode/1up The language, the math, the method. Also, how the approach has changed throughout the decades between then and now. Most of those changes (if not all) are not yet into the public domain. It is stuck in upload here, I logged out of OAuth and (maybe) should have only logged out of a few privileges.

In the first few years I was getting to know computers and its hacking fans, there was a device you could stick on your screen that determined what color you were really seeing. Greta or Gretl something. United States patent 1682572 looked like the great-grand mammy of this device.

I envy you your colorspace visions.--RaboKarbakian (talk) 12:49, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Index:Elementary Color (IA gri c00033125012656167).djvu

You had this linked as a PDF, I've uploaded a higher scan quality as Djvu. If you can figure out how to update the Wikidata linkages :). ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:31, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

BTW in respect of NBS Circular 553. It would be nice if there was a way to translate it into Wikidata at some future date.. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:31, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

wikidata is easy for this. Add the file to the same field as the pdf, toggle "Preferred Rank" at the left. Thank you for uploading this!

Believe it or not, I started with the National Bureau of Standards text; should end with it as NBS Circulars are kind of a new thing to me and also here and all of the theres. Also, I looked at Portal:Physics to place this growing list and -- well, put that off until later also.--RaboKarbakian (talk) 15:39, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Paul Centore

I assume you've already found his pages, but if you were wanting to make a big efforts, trying to get him to Open Access some of his papers would be nice. (He also has some Matlab code for doing conversions it seems) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 20:17, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Page:Color standards and color nomenclature (Ridgway, 1912).djvu/61

The dual tile approach was because I was intending we had the 'captured' tiles alongside those made by doing a blend based on his methodology detailed in the book. I wasn't sure what approach you were planning .ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 17:40, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

ShakespeareFan00: Those plates give the best information for getting to the color as it was in the book that was scanned that I have ever encountered. "Information" being white and black tiles to Level with. So, I was really in to this. There are still problems though, as each tile has a multitude of colors within. If I continue, I will upload the color adjusted tiles I worked with.

The "if I continue" is if you want me to continue or not. And, it is really great (to me) to have the text already proofed but it is also really sad (to me) that the text is already proofed. More sad is that I don't take the advantage given and just read it so that is clearly on me.--RaboKarbakian (talk) 11:21, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Please continue :)

The approach I would have used is to find the sRGB for the intial wavelengths (given) and then using a blend algorithim to generate the intermediates, which in turn would be blended with white black and then grey...

I think I put some values for the RGB values generated by this approach in comments in the relevant tables? but I had not got that far. The reason for wanting 'generated' values alongside 'sampled' values, was to act as a way back into being possibly able to correct in other works based on likely pigment drift :) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 11:35, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

I found something on MDN - https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/color_value/color-mix It should be possible to use Ridgway's methodolgy from 'pure' colors to rebuild the color charts :) ... ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 14:12, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

ShakespeareFan00: That is pretty interesting, I am going to need some time to think about it more. My initial (and more instinctive than logical) feeling is that there is still the problem of converting to Y′ and once the conversion is completed, there is the whole color with no mixing needed.

Did you know that the X11 Named colors came from scanned paint samples (chips)? What made me think of that was the color-mix ability to make the graduated color sets that are within those Named colors; thinking of a use for that if my instincts are valid. color-mix would be a great way to highlight and shade gui troughs and notches (which seemed to fall out of fashion between 2002 and 2006).

And more of css tricks, I need some place to rant about disappearing/reappearing sliders on editable spaces. I am fighting for the right to put my mouse cursor behind a letter that is in the same "real estate" that the re-appearing slider wants to be. "They" used to do these things to free up "valuable real estate" on the screen, but I dislike the little war I engage while trying to edit and not scroll. This rant doesn't belong here, but I don't know where it does go. Into the wind, I guess as this is a new fad everywhere.--RaboKarbakian (talk) 14:43, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Categorization

Thank you for adding American patents in the public domain. I'd like to inform you that there is a category for American patents at Category:United States patents, in which you should add it to your works to ensure greater accessibility.廣九直通車 (talk) 04:00, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

廣九直通車 I will try to remember but shortly after I started to work here, Billinghurst requested (in office rude) that I stay away from the Cats here. And it was the one thing that Billinghurst asked that was easy to do. The upshot of this is that I have almost 6 years experience in not categorizing here. It shall be a hard habit to break, maybe. Wouldn't it be nice if the header would pull that in from wikidata also?--RaboKarbakian (talk) 14:12, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Sorry to hear about that. From my experience HotCat is a fairly convenient method to work with categorization. I've seen how some Author pages can be automatically categorized (e.g. Author:Nikola Tesla is automatically categorized under Category:Electrical engineers as authors, etc.), but I don't think they're applicable to mainspace texts by now. Please tell me if you have other problems, thanks!廣九直通車 (talk) 03:19, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Proofing 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica

Hi RaboKarbakian, you are one of the few editors who have worked on EB1911 in the past that are still active, thanks for your past edits. I was wondering if you'd consider doing more proofing work on EB1911.

I'm working through the EB1911 volumes and I'm currently working through vol. 20. I've found a useful technique to aid proofing by using Earwig's Copyvio Detector and the pages at theodora.com/encyclopedia. As an example, the link below compares a random page in EB1911 vol. 21 against the "Pliocene" article at theodora.com/encyclopedia :

https://copyvios.toolforge.org/?lang=en&project=wikisource&title=Page%3AEB1911+-+Volume+21.djvu%2F880&oldid=&use_engine=0&use_links=0&turnitin=0&action=compare&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftheodora.com%2Fencyclopedia%2Fp2%2Fpliocene.html

It picks up several typo errors in the EB1911 page. Further proofing is still needed, of course, but it's a great help to use the generally very good quality text at theodora.com/encyclopedia (although the numbers often have errors).

Any questions? Let me know. Hope you can do some further proofing in EB1911 with the above technique to help, maybe starting from volume 21? regards, DivermanAU (talk) 01:15, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Page:Arabian Nights (Sterrett).djvu/12

Just to inform you that for cases like this, there is {{overfloat image}}; the solution you tried there does not work as the image's white background covers the text. Cheers, — Alien333 ( what I did
why I did it wrong ) 22:22, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Alien333 Weird, it is working here! On my way to fixing it: I am wondering what browser you are using?--RaboKarbakian (talk) 11:31, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Alien333 also, is it working now? I ask because this is the first time I tried something like this in the stylesheet.--RaboKarbakian (talk) 11:35, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Don't know what happened, but now it works. Still, I think {{overfloat image}} would be much less of a headache, but do as you wish. — Alien333 ( what I did
why I did it wrong ) 13:11, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

publishers typos

yeah, well "revenge" was projected to be an attack on commons, where they are ignorant of "queen anne's revenge". however, an evocation of effie (of blessed memory) got me some brownie points at global lock. i tend not to use the "lie" word, having been called that by multiple WMF staffers. i would counsel going along to get along on small sister projects. yrmv. --Slowking4 ‽ digitaleffie's ghost 00:21, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Page end hyphen

Hi RaboKarbakian,

Given your comment on Page:The Lonesomest Doll.djvu/11, I think you might be confused about how {{peh}} works. If you do not want the hyphen to show once transcluded, do not use {{peh}}. If you do want the hyphen to show once transcluded, do use {{peh}} (or leave the hyphen character and then place {{upe}} after it, which I generally prefer these days).

Regards, TeysaKarlov (talk) 19:43, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

TeysaKarlov: First and mostly, thank you for validating this! Well, actually any validation (final picky proofing, really). I am terrible with this. Also, I have been justifiably yelled at for using my skills, such as they are, for this purpose.

I did use the {{peh}} when I did not want the hyphen to show. Also, you left an actual hyphen which will look like

para- graph 

with a space behind the hyphen in transclusion. Heh, every day I think of how to ask you not to remove them, but the validation was worth more to me than the little bit of effort to change the pehs back. And, truthfully, I only this week found, read and used {{upe}}.

Also, I am sorry that you might be leaving them in place now, because it was fun to look over how many little mistakes you found and marvel at the talent for this. I am awed by such a talent.

The other hyphen option (that comes in handy sometimes) is {{hws}} and {{hwe}}. The first displays the whole word in the page namespace (s for start), and the second also might display the whole word in the page namespace but not in Main (where transclusions go). They work better when there is a hyphenated word with an image in between.

If there is anything I can do for you, not including validating texts here, let me know!--RaboKarbakian (talk) 02:42, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Well, you were right in that I did have it wrong. The only thing that works is {{hws}} and e. Peh was so easy to use. Drat and thanks! I can be difficult to fix.--RaboKarbakian (talk) 02:52, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

@RaboKarbakian All good. Happy to validate, folklore and short stories especially, as I don't find much time to actually read works on wikisource otherwise.

To clarify, when you said you left an actual hyphen which will look like para- graph with a space behind the hyphen in transclusion, did you actually check the transclusion?

Take for a random example, besides that it was Rackham illustrated: Page:Peter Pan in Kensington Gardens (1912, Hodder & Stoughton).djvu/188, where a {{peh}} was placed in the word everybody between pages 65 and 66. Removing the {{peh}} and replacing it with a actual hyphen (without hws), then checking the transclusion at: Peter Pan In Kensington Gardens/Lock-out Time seems to show everybody has now transcluded correctly, on my end at least. I also checked the Lonesomest Doll transclusion as I was validating, and the actual hyphens also appeared to transclude correctly then. Hence my question about whether you checked the transclusion, and if so, why it looked okay for me, and not you?

Regards, TeysaKarlov (talk) 21:10, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I absolutely did not check this in the last 5 or 6 years; I just assumed it.

TeysaKarlovMore truth about this hyphen thing, sometimes when I am editing, a hyphen disappears and reappears without my keyboard doing anything that would cause this. I delete the "Creating page" from my browser history and this phenomena disappears. I put this phenomena into my list of "Unexpected things that I am pretty sure are happening because I have been hacked"; because it seemed to go there. Meanwhile, on the ereader, there are modern books there, packaged by someone else and purchased by me that have a bunch of hyphens in words that are not at a line ending. (I use the device horizontally putting the large non-screen area on the side where I can hold it better; so I am not using the usual width.

I am taking this to Scriptorum. I would like a technical explanation. In truth, I changed to peh because it was easier/quicker. Just the hyphen is way easier. Also, I am probably not the only person who has been here for years who doesn't know about this. One who has been here many a multitude longer than me just gave up the 2004 edit tools because of hws being so cumbersome to use.

Thank you for pointing this out!--RaboKarbakian (talk) 13:53, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

TeysaKarlov September of 2018 is when this change happened! For this whole discussion, you were clearly correct and I was completely wrong. All those things that need to be done got somewhat hard-coded into what I do. And peh! I was so grateful because I thought I was using something that would simply add a hyphen in the page and remove it and the space in the main and I was constantly wondering what reason they hadn't done this before and that was terribly, terribly wrong. (I've got a lot of peh to find and fix.) So, apparently you have nitpicked a couple of errors from me as well as my proof reading. You should drop a huge terrible table on me to do for you or a batch of images. I am good for those. Humbled regards,--RaboKarbakian (talk) 11:59, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

@RaboKarbakian All good. Just happy I could help, and if you find a way to search Wikisource for uses of {{peh}}, I also don't mind assisting with their replacement. At present, I don't have any both huge and terrible tables to work on, except perhaps the genealogical tables in Hawaii's Story by Hawaii's Queen (which have braces inside them to boot, which probably means tables inside tables), but I wouldn't wish those on anybody. Thus, I think I will save this offer for the point in time when I add a Rackham-illustrated book or two into the MC (whenever I find the time to start reading them), at which point I will happily collect on those batch of images. Regards, TeysaKarlov (talk) 19:43, 11 December 2024 (UTC)