User talk:Yodin

Welcome to Wikisource

Hello, Yodin, and welcome to Wikisource! Thank you for joining the project. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

• Help pages, especially for proofreading
• Help:Beginner's guide to Wikisource
• Style guide
• Inclusion policy
• Wikisource:For Wikipedians

You may be interested in participating in

• Proofread of the Month
• Monthly Challenge
• Requested texts

Add the code {{active projects}}, {{PotM}} or {{Collaboration/MC}} to your page for current Wikisource projects.

You can put a brief description of your interests on your user page and contributions to another Wikimedia project, such as Wikipedia and Commons.

Have questions? Then please ask them at either

• Wikisource:Scriptorium; or
• Wikisource:Scriptorium/Help

I hope you enjoy contributing to Wikisource, the library that is free for everyone to use! In discussions, please "sign" your comments using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your username if you're logged in (or IP address if you are not) and the date. If you need help, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question here (click edit) and place {{helpme}} before your question.

Again, welcome! — billinghurst sDrewth 02:44, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Extra space

When I reviewed this I removed a bunch of extra spaces. You might want to look at Help:Beginner's_guide_to_typography, if you have an questions you can ask on my talk page or at Wikisource:Scriptorium. Looks like your are doing a great job on your project :) JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 16:06, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the guidance (and compliment). I've gone through the guide more thoroughly now, and am still trying to pick up how you experienced scribes do things, so the correction is much appreciated too. :D --xensyria^T 17:20, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

OCR gadget

Have you seen the OCR gadget that, when activated, appears in the toolbar in Page: ns? It works pretty well these days. — billinghurst sDrewth 05:02, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks @Billinghurst: Samwilson did mention it when he fixed this page for me. I thought it just ripped the OCR layer from the DJVU file, but yes this is much better than whatever Internet Archive seems to be using! It does seem to add ligatures (e.g. fi, fl, etc.) and fancy apostrophes/quotations marks though... What would be the best way to fix this? Phabricator? --Yodin^T 11:50, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Hmm, quirky, I have not had that issue before. One-offs, please just fix. If you have a lot to do, then you canlet it do its thing, and get someone to run a bot through to cleanup via asking at Wikisource:Bot requests. OR, you can use the m:TemplateScript which is a local gadget, and utilise some regex scripts to do these cleanups. OU will see that I have a series of scripts to do this sort of legwork in User:Billinghurst/common.js. No perfect way, it comes down to preference and balance. — billinghurst sDrewth 12:14, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Ok, thanks! --Yodin^T 12:17, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

{{Img float|polygon=…}}

Hello. I am impressed by this new approach. You might wish to note in the documentation that this now completely supplants the {{flow under}} family of templates…? 114.78.66.82 09:48, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

I hope it's more useful or easier in some situations, but I'm definitely not aiming to supplant anything! What would greatly help both is a proofreading wiki gadget that would let editors visually get the dimensions for these polygons (or {{flow under}}), and then improving coverage of these templates (including {{overfloat image}}, etc.) on the help pages. I agree adding links on the two templates' doc pages could be a good idea in the meantime. And thanks for the encouragement! --Yodin^T 10:48, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

Module:Cl-act

Can you take a look at this as well?

It's a pain to get the side-titles to play nicely with drop initials and other templates that float, A third contributor to take a look would be appreciated. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:30, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Specifically 5d and 5e here - Page:Test_page#Testing_/s_/e_version_(5e)_with_inline_at_start,_layout_specified_and_a_drop_initial_(I_said_let's_have_some_insanse_test_case!) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:30, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

I see what you mean! I'll take a look over the weekend. :) --Yodin^T 21:09, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

@ShakespeareFan00: I haven't had any luck with this – are there any cases "in the wild" that need solving yet? --Yodin^T 23:23, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Check what it links to, I think there's only 3 Pages: that use this Module at the moment. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 08:27, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

hws/hwe

Please do not remove these templates where they contain a hyphenated word. The {{peh}} template does not work the way it ought to. --EncycloPetey (talk) 17:57, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up @EncycloPetey: I've removed all my uses of {{peh}}. I couldn't see any warnings about it on the template page - are the problems with it documented? --Yodin^T 18:57, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

I only discovered the issue today. I suspect some software update borked the template's functionality, though I do not know whether this is a temporary or permanent issue yet. --EncycloPetey (talk) 19:18, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

dtpl and the reason I don't use it

I was going to proof Grimm and then style it. Or, if things change, proof and style Grimm. So, I am going to revert your changes to the TOC there. Is there any reason that you changed what I did?

{{dtpl}} is a very bad template. It is easy to use, for sure. But it makes a new table for each entry. I have had at least one index that did not completely render in transclusion, meaning, red-linked pages stacked up at the bottom because only a certain amount of rendering is allowed. If I am working with someone else and they make the TOC with it, I don't change it. My projects don't use it any longer though.

Somewhere, maybe the beginning of this year, maybe the end of last year, User:Xover made a graphic display in Scriptorium showing just how badly behaved that template is.

I broke it once, using a special background color, and wouldn't you know, it is all just a page of dots with just a few showing at a time. So dtpl uses that whole page once every time it makes a line for the table of contents. See https://en.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Inductiveload&diff=prev&oldid=11778303#toc_to_toc_conversion for a means to a different dotted table of contents, but for another project.....

So, maybe this is not good advice, maybe it is. If the TOC is already made and looks good (with or without dots), you should just leave it, especially if someone else has started the work, recently.--RaboKarbakian (talk) 23:19, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

{{nsl2}} makes the link work in the Main (there can be problems --like it is impossible--getting the links to work in Index and Page namespaces -- due to too much nesting). So, that link did not work because the Main page isn't up yet. Just so you know, it was not at all broken.--RaboKarbakian (talk) 23:24, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

HA! Found it!! Wikisource:Scriptorium/Help/Archives/2022#Orley_Farm_Contents+Illustrations_Lists--RaboKarbakian (talk) 23:51, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

• @RaboKarbakian: Sorry, I should have checked with you before overhauling part of a book you were working on. I was very impatient to get the index page (including contents) ready for proofreading (it's a new {to me, anyway} Grimm translation!)

I've reverted the formatting back to how you'd set it up originally (I hope you don't mind I've kept the {{asc}} for the story titles, as this seems to match the contents formatting – but I will remove this if you want.)

I knew many editors hated {{dtpl}}, but hadn't realised the full extent of it, or the all of the reasons explained in the links you shared – thanks very much for this – I'll check out some of the alternative templates they link to as well as the table methods for future projects, and perhaps change some of the works I've done in the past with {{dtpl}}.

With regard to {{nsl2}} – this (along with adding page links on pages vi & vii) was the main reason I began editing the contents pages. For me, having a contents list on the index page with links to the chapters/stories (both red and blue links to see what's been done, and to use to make sure a new story/chapter I'm transcluding has the right page title without any typos) is crucial before I proofread, and as you say, {{nsl2}} specifically prevents links in the Index: namespace. Can I ask what the advantages are to using this over ordinary wikilinks, which should work in all namespaces, Main included? Do you normally add the contents to Main, and then transclude from Main to the Index page, or do you just accept that the Index page contents list won't link to the individual chapters? --Yodin^T 13:27, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Your activities with the book were very clear to me as it was all how I would have reacted and what I might have done (with the exception of my doing it with works that have been years and years dormant). So, everything I wrote and here, and the mood, was like speeding you through the last 5 years or so of my own evolving understanding. As a ~5 year old here, I am very much a youngster. Within the "culture" here, there is the "old way", the "new way", etc. I tend to pick the beautiful way and the way to export to epub in the way most likely to not need the whole of the 6G available. Which is a challenge, as I come here via commons and image heavy books. </politics>

Links from the Index to the Main: I miss them also. In fact, I have forgotten that I miss them even. Since nsl2, when everything is working here correctly, I get the first part done for Main and use that TOC. Another speed through a few of my years: there are icons at the top of the Index page. The finished book can be enjoyed page by page and the nsl2 links are nice for that, not accidentally putting a reader into the "scrolling" pages but leaving them in the "turning" pages. I think that the link to the style on the index page (within the edit areas) styles for the turning pages, but I haven't investigated that yet.

Style: See The Sleeping Beauty (Evans). I think it might be due to my Gigs and Gigs of image work, but I have this thing where I would like the finished ebook to look very much like the original book. There are things that are only awkwardly mimicked and things that really shouldn't be mimicked, and things that my ereader are not able to translate yet (as well as a web page) but as much as is possible one can look like the other. The Sleeping Beauty uses one style sheet (the tab at the top of the index). There are several templates and template environments for styles here, but one small style can make all the difference without the continual calls to the templates. The small caps on the TOC for instance.

Well, Sleeping did not have an index, so see Poe's Tales of Mystery and Imagination (the endpapers are not displaying correctly, yet). Those endpapers are a small miracle (to me) instigated by Billinghurst at Page:Wonder Book.djvu/2 and Page:Wonder Book.djvu/3.

At any rate, my goal is beautiful, small, yet image heavy epubs as possible. Also, I am having "old browser" problems, in which I think I have picked up a few "crackers" and adding a style sheet to the work I am working on messes up the wiki style for me. Not right away, but somewhere in the middle or towards the end of the book. I have been collecting screenshots of the phenomena.... So, I am hesitant to start one, and am considering my options.--RaboKarbakian (talk) 15:34, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for this, I hadn't realised how much more there is to make high quality ebooks. I'd also seen the stylesheet options, but hadn't investigated it (using these rather than inline styles via templates on each page does make sense). A lot of things to look into! --Yodin^T 15:06, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

{{upe}} and em-dashes.

https://en.wikisource.org/w/index.php?search=insource%3A%2Fde%5C%3E%5C%E2%80%94%2F&title=Special:Search&profile=advanced&fulltext=1&ns104=1

Most likely this is bot task or a carefully built script in AWB? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 08:13, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

AWB :) I ran an insource search in AWB like the one you linked, copied the results, then made another script to decrease the page numbers by one. --Yodin^T 08:51, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

The Night-mare (Apel/Klauer-Klattowski) why?

Hi. I am wondering why you are doing the works that way, especially when the works are then transcluded into main namespace, where as the formatting isn't needed. If that formatting is to be maintained, you could probably just have used <noinclude>d the table markers and the German text. The proofreading that you have done in that manner makes it difficult for the next person to come and interpret what is going on, the proofreading is now extremely busy. Also use of noinclude would have then allowed a standard transclusion using <pages> rather than having to use the repeated #lst methodology, and the complex section usage. Though maybe there is something else that you are trying to achieve that is not overt. Thanks. — billinghurst sDrewth 04:27, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

For context, this is one of the Gespensterbuch translations that I've been gradually adding for a while now; until recently very few of these translations were known about (including, for example, "The Black Chamber", translated by Thomas De Quincey, which was one of the Fantasmagoriana stories that inspired Mary Shelley to write Frankenstein, Byron to write his "Fragment" that was the first modern vampire story, and Polidori to write "The Vampyre", based on it). So for me, finding this and other obscure translations has been great, even if the subject matter is sometimes very strange.

In this case, I wanted to be able to transclude both the interlinear translation with the German and English text, and also just the English text, so that readers could choose which version they wanted to read: either a clearly formatting English-only poem, or the original text to give context for why the translation was extremely literal, and allow comparison with the German text. I'd also assumed that because the standard method is to transcribe works as close to the original book as possible, excluding the German text would have been frowned on, especially attempting to reformat just the English text from the way it's printed in the book (just a continuous string of text, with numbers added to show the start of each new stanza), to the poem format (based on the German text: see de Gutenberg, section 3); this didn't seem right to do in the Page: namespace, as this formatting isn't part of the original. I tried several different ways to transclude, including using <pages> to transclude, <poem> tags, <br> formatting etc., but one of the the main issues was that <noinclude> would prevent the German text from appearing in the interlinear German/English page (i.e. how the book was printed), and <includeonly> would add text (such as poem formatting, etc.) to both the German/English and the English-only pages (I thought about using things like {{main other}}, but again this wouldn't work as they'd both be transcluded into the mainspace).

Since this is just two pages, and seemed unlikely that other editors would want to add other English word-for-word translations from this book, I thought that two pages of terrible wiki markup might be excusable in this case. Thinking about it a bit more, it might well be possible to create a new template/module (maybe using css) that would allow the Page: markup to be clean and straightforward, and allow both the English/German text, and the English-only reformatted version. --Yodin^T 12:09, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Just a note that I've made {{interlinear translation}} to address this (it also uses divs to allow the translation to reflow, rather than the fixed table layout I was using before). --Yodin^T 10:22, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Grimm like Aesop

Sorting the Grimm tales is such a good thing! Thank you! There is something that would be very helpful for this. If you know about it already, my apologies. Worse would be to complete the task and then learn about it.

There was a change in policy at wikidata after I sorted through the fables here that I am quite sure would be helpful for any one sorting through Grimm tales. It is the allowance of redirects in the wiki-links at the bottom of the data pages. For the fables, if there was only one fable here, (this is before the policy) I would make the data for that edition, but need to put the link onto the literary work data. If I had sorted these after the policy, I could have put the redirect page at the literary work data and put the link to the one at its version data.

If you need more information, like how to do this, just let me know.--RaboKarbakian (talk) 12:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

@RaboKarbakian: Thanks for the encouraging words 🙂 I mostly enjoy finding more (especially obscure) translations of stories like this, and have been creating pages when I do, but I agree it would be good to get the entire set of Grimms stories sorted correctly. Regarding being able to use redirects on Wikidata: that's amazing! I remember when it would automatically convert redirects to the main article, and assumed that was still the case. As you say, this will make life much easier in cases where we only have one translation at the moment. Thanks for the heads up, and I might ask your advice if I start working more on the Wikidata side of this, if that's alright. --Yodin^T 12:30, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

There is a toggle or a "badge" among the badge options to the right of the link area at wikidata. That "badge" prevents that software from doing that. Giving obscure translations a data page would be very good, as you have all of the information at hand (or assuming such). When sorting the fables, I was structure oriented and not copyright oriented, so occasionally, unsourced versions just got blanked out and replaced with the versions header and other times, they got used to be the second for the creation of a versions page. I always assumed the copyright was okay, which, was probably safe with the fables.

It would be helpful for many of the texts here (and the one I am working on right now) if wikipedia would have redirects from old species names to the current ones which would turn the "Tree of Life" to a "Braid of Names of Life". But trulythat policy is immediately helpful for wikisource and its not just one entry on a version page.--RaboKarbakian (talk) 12:48, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks again, and for getting that option implemented 👍 Working out best practices for how to make Wikidata items for translations, editions of translations, etc. etc. is on my to-do list (I'm a bit less daunted now by how much work this would take). Once I've done this, I plan to go back over the Grimm translations pages and convert them to use the Wikidata templates, and maybe fix the rest of the Grimm stories at the same time. Turning non-source backed translations into versions/translations pages/redirects to source backed equivalents seems to have happened quite a bit with the Grimm stories too (this does make it much easier for non-admin editors when trying to unpick what had happened; would be more difficult if they'd been deleted), I'd only tagged the in-copyright ones that I could find still live in mainspace; if anyone wants to go through page histories to track down more in-copyright Grimm translations then good for them, but it's beyond the scope of what I'm doing. --Yodin^T 17:50, 6 February 2024 (UTC)